Musky Addicts Anonymous

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Vito
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Re: Musky Addicts Anonymous

Post by Vito » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:54 am

Some more food for thought from a consultant of the MI DNR.
Flouro under 130# isn't fine for a fly and IMO a fly should be attached with wire only. It can get inhaled and stuck in places where it's going to kill the fish unless removed. It's not "just a hook" we're talking about a big fly that is going to inhibit or greatly reduce the eating process. There aren't any studies for muskies other than the single hook sucker studies, but I can assure you that a hook isn't going to just fall out. Usually the fisheries divisions don't do studies where the outcome is so obvious.

Generally a hook embedded in a fishes mouth becomes encapsulated and over time a large growth appears that can inhibit feeding. That is IF the fish survives long enough for this to happen. Let's leave the dead fish to the people that aren't prepared with the right gear because they aren't targeting muskies.
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NICH
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Re: Musky Addicts Anonymous

Post by NICH » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:15 pm

Vito wrote:Some more food for thought from a consultant of the MI DNR.
Flouro under 130# isn't fine for a fly and IMO a fly should be attached with wire only. It can get inhaled and stuck in places where it's going to kill the fish unless removed. It's not "just a hook" we're talking about a big fly that is going to inhibit or greatly reduce the eating process. There aren't any studies for muskies other than the single hook sucker studies, but I can assure you that a hook isn't going to just fall out. Usually the fisheries divisions don't do studies where the outcome is so obvious.

Generally a hook embedded in a fishes mouth becomes encapsulated and over time a large growth appears that can inhibit feeding. That is IF the fish survives long enough for this to happen. Let's leave the dead fish to the people that aren't prepared with the right gear because they aren't targeting muskies.
Well that about sums it up...

In addition to fewer fish lets also think about how long it takes to grow a legitimate sized musky (10+ years). And it's not like a serious esox angler is targeting juvenile fish. So the chance that most trophy fish are caught and released multiple time in their life is almost certain.

I see it with our tiger musky on a regular basis, almost all have been stuck a time or two and if you look closely you can see that.

So considering that, why take the risk if your serious about these fish or these fisheries?

I used to fish 60-80 fluoro and only have a few bite offs over the last few year, but I've lost (do to chafing) several fish boat-side over the years. After I lost the biggest fish over a year ago or so I've switch to knotable wire and I can assure you the fish don't give a shit. I've been out-fished by friends in gin clear water out of the back of the boat while I fish fluoro and they fish wire, it's pretty eye opening. Also the idea of losing the "one" again makes me want to dive off a building head first onto the concrete.
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Vito
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Re: Musky Addicts Anonymous

Post by Vito » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:29 pm

Some more interesting info. Yeah it mostly addresses bass, but still...



Hooks In or Out?
by Ralph Manns

Getting the word out on hook removal. Those of us who try to share the findings of scientific study with non-scientists are often frustrated. It seems very difficult to get the word out. We write about some important discovery, but find anglers, particularly the influential professional bass anglers, either don't read the new information or dismiss the new scientific insights because they conflict with beliefs the anglers already hold.
Professional and TV anglers aren't the only ones to be slow in learning and applying the latest "word" from scientists. Biologists, particularly state fisheries workers are too busy with their own assigned tasks to read all of the literature produced by other scientists. They continue to advise anglers to handle fish using outmoded procedures.

The recommendation that anglers cut the leader close to the hook when bass are "deep-hooked" is a good example. It is hard to find a publication on catch-and-release (C&R) techniques that doesn't pass on this poor advice. Yet, recent research on release techniques strongly suggests there is a better way.

Some years ago, Doug Hannon noted that most magazine articles and state publications recommend leaving hooks in bass and other fish to "rust" out. He claimed that hooks don't rust fast enough, even in salt water; and suggested that the shank of a hook pointing up the throat of a bass acts like a lever or trap door that prevents swallowing. Bass can die of starvation while waiting for normal body processes to eject the hook. Food coming down a bass' throat will bypass a hook-shank, IF the shank lies tightly against the side of the throat where the barb is lodged. However, if the shank protrudes into the throat, food coming down can push the shank across the esophagus, blocking it. Deep-hooked bass may even feel pain as the food rotates the barb and regurgitate the food. Recently, Hannon's observations have been scientifically verified. John Foster, Recreational Fisheries Coordinator for the Maryland Department of Natural Resources, studied striped bass at Chesapeake Bay. His researchers held throat-hooked stripers between 16- and 28-inches long for observation in half-strength seawater so that hooks had ample opportunity to rust away. Size 1/0 and 2/0 stainless steel, bronzed, nickel, tin and tin-cadmium hooks were hooked in the top of each fish's esophagus, with an 18-inch length of line connected to the hook.

After four months, 78 percent of the hooks were still imbedded. Cadmium coated hooks poisoned 20 percent of the fish, and production of these hooks has been stopped. Bronzed hooks were less likely (70%) to be retained than tin-cadmium (80%), nickel (83%), or stainless steel (100%) hooks.

In a second test, the line was clipped at the eye of the hook, as advised by most existing C&R guides. One-hundred percent of the stainless hooks were again retained, while 56 percent of tin, 76 percent of bronze, 84 percent of tin-cadmium, and 88 percent of nickel hooks remained. Fish mortality was greater when all line was trimmed. Foster theorized that the lengths of line hanging from a fish's mouth kept the hook-shank flat against the side of the esophagus and allowed food to pass. Without the line, food could move the hook and close the throat.

Hooks rusted slowly in stages, and the bend and barb became smaller very gradually. Stripers formed scar tissue around imbedded hook points, a typical reaction of body tissue to foreign matter. Foster noted, however, that once the tough scar tissue formed, hooks became more, not less, difficult to remove. Months after fish were hooked, infections sometimes developed around points, causing some deaths.

Based on his research, Foster recommended anglers carefully remove even deeply imbedded hooks. If the hook can not be removed, then it seems better to leave about 18 inches of line attached. Perhaps, someday, these findings will reach C&R anglers, the biologists who are researching C&R and publish C&R guidelines, and TV anglers who teach by their example.

Another good idea is to carry strong wire-cutting pliers. Cur off protruding barbs in the throat and the hook shank falls free easily.

Texas researchers recently compared the mortality of largemouth bass hooked with live bait and artificial lures. Their main finding: "there is no biological justification to regulate use of live bait to catch bass" has been widely publicized. Other findings may help anglers make appropriate adjustments in technique.

In two separate tests, largemouth bass in a private water were landed by TPWD anglers using Carolina-rigged scented plastic worms, crankbaits with multiple treble hooks, and live carp fished with either a Carolina rig or a float. To simulate normal fishing conditions, anglers with different levels of expertise were used.

While fishing with floats, anglers were instructed to delay hooksets until floats went completely under, simulating the way typical amateur anglers fish with unattended rods. Under all other conditions, anglers were to strike immediately upon feeling a hit. Captured bass were immediately examined to identify hook-related injuries. When bass were hooked deep in the throat, the line was cut and hook left in place. (TPWD did not identify whether the cut was made in the traditional way near the hook, or with line remaining outside the fish's mouth.) Bass were then kept in a large holding net over a 72-hour observation period to determine short-term mortality rates. Sixty bass were taken using each method. Tests were made in August, when water was warm and stress and mortality are normally high.

The average mortality under these worst-case conditions was 22 percent. Carolina rigs with scented worms caused the highest mortality, followed by live carp used under floats, crankbaits, and Carolina-rigged carp minnows.

TPWD biologists concluded that the timing of the hookset appeared more critical than the type of bait used in the determination of short-term death rates. The data show bass hooked in the throat had poor survival odds. Evidently, largemouth bass took both lures and live bait fully into their mouths almost immediately. The bass pros' advice to strike without delay is important to reduce fish mortality. Angling techniques that delay hooksets should be avoided.

Carolina-rig and worm combos likely killed more fish because the loose-floating leader prevented immediate detection of some strikes and flavored worms are easily swallowed or held in the back of a bass' mouth. Eighteen percent of bass taken on rigs with worms were throat-hooked.

In contrast, Carolina rigs with live bait and live baits under floats caused less mortality, likely because live preyfish are often held in a bass' mouth for a few seconds, killed, and turned to be swallowed headfirst. This gives anglers a few seconds more to detect hits before baits are ingested. The decision to delay hits when live baits were used with floats and to strike immediately with Carolina-rigged baits likely caused the different mortality rates of these two techniques. Nevertheless, 10 percent of bass hooked on Carolina-rigged live baits were hooked in the esophagus.

It is no surprise that crankbaits are less likely to be swallowed, as their artificial nature is immediately detectable to fish. When fisheries are managed primarily for C&R or trophy bass production, it may be appropriate to ban use of multiple rods to reduce delayed hooksets, or to limit lures to items unlikely to be swallowed. In any case, C&R sportsmen will want to avoid techniques that delay hooksets, like fishing with unattended rods.

The TPWD study showed that bass hooked in the tongue and esophagus had about a 50 percent chance of dying, while bass hooked in the lips mouth, jaw, roof of mouth had 25 percent or less mortality. Interestingly, only 12.5 percent of gill hooked fish died. This finding suggests anglers who kill and eat or mount gill-damaged bass because "they are unlikely to live" are in error.

TPWD also compared the survival of bass when they were bleeding and when leaders were cut and hooks left in the fish. Removing hooks improved bass survival when bass were not bleeding. But there was little difference in mortality when bass were bleeding or hooks were left in the fish.

Anglers practicing C&R rather than to eat bass might note these findings. Fish caught with only superficial wounds are likely to survive release. Small, deeply-hooked and bleeding bass likely should be eaten, rather than released to die later. But lunker bass are so valuable that they should be immediately released, even if they are bleeding or deeply-hooked. Remove the hook if posible. Leave an 18-inch leader if you can not remove the hook.

Ralph Manns
"And now I am, against my better judgement, high at work." - jhnnythndr

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Nemeth
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Re: Musky Addicts Anonymous

Post by Nemeth » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:46 pm

I was bitten off about a year ago on the largest and really, the first musky I ever had eat. You bet your sweet ass I have wire at the ready for this year. Now if I could just quit trout setting the fuckers.....
"They'd tow their canoe up to the top of the island and the more it wobbled, the better endowed their firstborn son would be... Old river people tradition." - D-Nymph

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Re: Musky Addicts Anonymous

Post by steelhyde » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:06 pm

Ok, true story:

I was with AA one fall afternoon and was tagging along in the back seat of the boat while he was guiding a client. Sometimes he lets people go for a ride when he guides. I was throwing here and there and happened to hook into something rather large. How large, I'll never know but it instantly started peeling line upstream - which for a musky, usually means it's big because they don't often run.

About 5 seconds into the run my line goes limp and I quickly realize I was bitten off. I cried and pouted in the back seat of the boat like a true asshole (with a paying client in front who had not hooked a fish in two days, mind you). Not only did I lose a mystery fish not knowing how big it was, but I also lost a killer fly that had been good to me all fall.

That night I met up with some fellow dude-brah musky bros at a local establishment and told them about the heart ache. They happened to be fishing that same stretch behind us. And they just so happened to find my fly floating downstream, not too far from where I lost that fish. I recovered that fly that night (with 3" of leader still attached) and went and caught a fish on it the next day.

So, they can work that hook out.

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Re: Musky Addicts Anonymous

Post by NICH » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:28 pm

steelhyde wrote:Ok, true story:

I was with AA one fall afternoon and was tagging along in the back seat of the boat while he was guiding a client. Sometimes he lets people go for a ride when he guides. I was throwing here and there and happened to hook into something rather large. How large, I'll never know but it instantly started peeling line upstream - which for a musky, usually means it's big because they don't often run.

About 5 seconds into the run my line goes limp and I quickly realize I was bitten off. I cried and pouted in the back seat of the boat like a true asshole (with a paying client in front who had not hooked a fish in two days, mind you). Not only did I lose a mystery fish not knowing how big it was, but I also lost a killer fly that had been good to me all fall.

That night I met up with some fellow dude-brah musky bros at a local establishment and told them about the heart ache. They happened to be fishing that same stretch behind us. And they just so happened to find my fly floating downstream, not too far from where I lost that fish. I recovered that fly that night (with 3" of leader still attached) and went and caught a fish on it the next day.

So, they can work that hook out.
How do you even know if you drove the hook home? Probably wasn't imbedded all the way if I had to guess.

But cool story either way.
"Did you hand a buddy your coors light and say "watch this" right before posting this shit?" Yard Sale

We've already discussed pissed stained goat pubes and their applications in fly tying... Do a search dumb@$$! JoshO

http://flyobsession.com/

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steelhyde
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Re: Musky Addicts Anonymous

Post by steelhyde » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:50 pm

NICH wrote:
How do you even know if you drove the hook home? Probably wasn't imbedded all the way if I had to guess.
Are you questioning my abilities? I always drive it home!

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Ginseng Sullivan
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Re: Musky Addicts Anonymous

Post by Ginseng Sullivan » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:24 pm

i heard the new Pope's a wire guy.

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Vito
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Re: Musky Addicts Anonymous

Post by Vito » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:26 pm

Ginseng Sullivan wrote:i heard the new Pope's a wire guy.
I laughed.
"And now I am, against my better judgement, high at work." - jhnnythndr

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Vito
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Re: Musky Addicts Anonymous

Post by Vito » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:31 pm

steelhyde wrote:Ok, true story:

I was with AA one fall afternoon and was tagging along in the back seat of the boat while he was guiding a client. Sometimes he lets people go for a ride when he guides. I was throwing here and there and happened to hook into something rather large. How large, I'll never know but it instantly started peeling line upstream - which for a musky, usually means it's big because they don't often run.

About 5 seconds into the run my line goes limp and I quickly realize I was bitten off. I cried and pouted in the back seat of the boat like a true asshole (with a paying client in front who had not hooked a fish in two days, mind you). Not only did I lose a mystery fish not knowing how big it was, but I also lost a killer fly that had been good to me all fall.

That night I met up with some fellow dude-brah musky bros at a local establishment and told them about the heart ache. They happened to be fishing that same stretch behind us. And they just so happened to find my fly floating downstream, not too far from where I lost that fish. I recovered that fly that night (with 3" of leader still attached) and went and caught a fish on it the next day.

So, they can work that hook out.
This is a cool story.

I am by no means questioning your ability to drive it home like NICH, but I have seen muskies landed that were never "hooked". The fish just refused to open its mouth and let the prey go. I have also lost fish that I've fought for over a minute, just to watch it open its mouth boatside and spit the fly. No headshake, just spit it out.
"And now I am, against my better judgement, high at work." - jhnnythndr

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steelhyde
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Re: Musky Addicts Anonymous

Post by steelhyde » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:35 pm

Fine. Fuck it. You win. I'm going wire. I'm gonna be responsible.

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Adams
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Re: Musky Addicts Anonymous

Post by Adams » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:39 pm

steelhyde wrote:Fine. Fuck it. You win. I'm going wire. I'm gonna be responsible.
Liar.

But I'll take your worthless flouro supply off yer hands if'n ya do switch.
Last edited by Adams on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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