DID ANYONE NOTICE

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eponymous
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by eponymous » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:49 pm

Mattb wrote: I have close friends, mostly college roommates, who live in a few different countries worldwide. They all rave about the health care in their respective adopted countries.

I've never met anyone, and the studies I've seen all agree with this, that has experienced the health care system in another developed country that would even consider trading what they have for our system.
Funny how everyone comes here when the really need to get healed......

I work for a Canadian company and hear nothing but complaints. I can tell you that when they bought my company we were given an "equivalen" plan to our Canadian employees. It is a major downgrade. Things that use to get covered now come out of pocket - a pocket that is getting less deep.

I also have client (whom is down here for lunch tomorrow) who is a British citizen that has lived in Canada for 10 years after residing in Pittsburgh for 10. (Is moving to Canada from Pittsburgh and upgrade????) He says he would not trade the care he got here over what he got in England or now Canada. I guess it is all a matter of perspective but I will refer you back to my original statement.

I am now going to enjoy a kick ass "paddy melt" and get back to work.
"Baseball gives every American boy a chance to excel, not just to be as good as someone else but to be better than someone else. This is the nature of man and the name of the game." Ted Williams

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SOBF
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by SOBF » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:21 pm

Got my ass kicked at scrabble. Matt I'm glad your families experience with the Canadian system was good. I know of others that had the opposite opinion. Perhaps much like here it depends on where you are and who you see.

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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by Mattb » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:05 pm

SOBF wrote:Perhaps much like here it depends on where you are and who you see.
This is a good point, but, in Canadia, and in most of the developed world, you get to see someone - period. In the case I described above, she went to the doctor because she had a bad cold that she couldn't shake. Up there, it was either free or a trivial fee, up here it's over a hundred bucks just to step foot in a doctor's office - what're the chances that she skips the doc. altogether if that's the case?
I work for a Canadian company and hear nothing but complaints.
Canucks are whiners - they can't help it. Ask any of them if they'd rather switch to the US system, chances are they'll look at you like you're soft in the head. The Canucks, Aussies, Kiwis, and Brits I've spoken to about this recently all have their complaints about their respective systems, but they all view our system with a mix of pity and disgust.
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
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stonedfly
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by stonedfly » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:50 pm

The health care I have received here in Argentina (present local) and previously in New Zealand is/was far better than anything I have ever experienced in the states because of the public option. With two sons born out of states I have spent my fair share of time in doctor offices, ERs, and hospitals over the past three years (multiple kid/women issues: broken legs, plugs in ears, sniffles galore, broken pussy from squirting fat head minni-me's, etc.). As I mentioned previously, this is because I have always had private (and very affordable) insurance which made me privy to the best physicians in the private hospitals. Non-profit insurance, think about it. The thing that makes my butt pucker the most about a rotation back to the states is the fucked up health care system and the fact that I will be returning with three dependents in tow and will once again in all likelihood become a number in the system of some PPO. How anyone can defend the current state of our system is really and truly beyond my comprehension other than to say that the scare tactics are working. It should be noted that I have multiple doctors in the immediate family and have had ample time to discuss this from both sides. The shit needs fixin so let's figure out a way to do so and now.
"We must be careful about what we pretend to be."n --Kurt Vonnegut

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eponymous
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by eponymous » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:34 pm

Mattb wrote:The Canucks, Aussies, Kiwis, and Brits I've spoken to about this recently all have their complaints about their respective systems, but they all view our system with a mix of pity and disgust.
Matt:

Serious observation/question/query - whatever you want to call it. A philosophical whimsy if you will.

Could it be that if you ask a "conservative" Canadian how they feel about healthcare in Canada they are not pleased and if you ask a "liberal" Kiwi what they think they just love the government system? Seriously it may be just who you talk to and what their view of the world might be.

I like the fact that I have control over my healthcare and choice in treatment along with my doctor. (Though it now costs me more under my current plan modeled to match the one in Canada). I have yet to be convinced that I will have the same control under a government managed plan. That is not my fault for not listening / not reading enough / or listening to too much fox news. It is that the president and his sycophants in the media have not done a good enough job of explaining/proving it to me.

If they were to prove to me that my care would be the same or better than it is now I would breathe a sigh of relieve and ask the obvious next question which would be how they intend to pay for it? (Actually it is not "they" who intend to pay for it. They intend for me to pay for my care as well as the care of others. If that meant ponying up for a kid with CP or a vet who lost a leg so be it. But if it means some fat fuck in Alabama who smokes and eats MickeyD's every day I will not be very happy - for I already subsidize that leach’s lifestyle.)

The president has yet to convince the CBO that it will cost less and it does not take a PhD in economics from Stanford to figure out that covering more people will mean lower or equivalent costs if the level of care remains the same.

Coming back around to my original query - my view of the world does not include the government having control over any sector of my life - save the typical basics (national defense, etc.). The government has yet to prove it can run anything better than the private sector (which admittedly is not always 100% by any means). I sure as hell don't think I want them to give this one the old college try.

Just sayin'
"Baseball gives every American boy a chance to excel, not just to be as good as someone else but to be better than someone else. This is the nature of man and the name of the game." Ted Williams

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eponymous
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by eponymous » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:40 pm

stonedfly wrote:The health care I have received here in Argentina (present local) and previously in New Zealand is/was far better than anything I have ever experienced in the states because of the public option. With two sons born out of states I have spent my fair share of time in doctor offices, ERs, and hospitals over the past three years (multiple kid/women issues: broken legs, plugs in ears, sniffles galore, broken pussy from squirting fat head minni-me's, etc.). As I mentioned previously, this is because I have always had private (and very affordable) insurance which made me privy to the best physicians in the private hospitals. Non-profit insurance, think about it. The thing that makes my butt pucker the most about a rotation back to the states is the fucked up health care system and the fact that I will be returning with three dependents in tow and will once again in all likelihood become a number in the system of some PPO. How anyone can defend the current state of our system is really and truly beyond my comprehension other than to say that the scare tactics are working. It should be noted that I have multiple doctors in the immediate family and have had ample time to discuss this from both sides. The shit needs fixin so let's figure out a way to do so and now.
It is so ironic that you mention Argentina. I have a good friend and colleague who is originally from BA. He is from a quite wealthy family. His father is a physician. Last year they were in Patagonia (lucky bastard) at the family retreat home. His son broke his arm riding a bike. He could easily have stayed there for emergency surgery. His father's advice was to give the kid pain killers and jump on a plane back to Boston for the best care in the world.

I'm curious to know what issues you had here in the US. Were you a US citizen at the time? Did you have a job and insurance? What were the injuries / illnesses?
"Baseball gives every American boy a chance to excel, not just to be as good as someone else but to be better than someone else. This is the nature of man and the name of the game." Ted Williams

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eponymous
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by eponymous » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:45 pm

Mattb wrote:
This is a good point, but, in Canadia, and in most of the developed world, you get to see someone - period. In the case I described above, she went to the doctor because she had a bad cold that she couldn't shake. Up there, it was either free or a trivial fee, up here it's over a hundred bucks just to step foot in a doctor's office - what're the chances that she skips the doc. altogether if that's the case?
Matt: To be accurate her visit was not free. She payed taxes out the wazoo for that "free" coverage. (I am considering not doing projects in Canada anymore b/c the GST and other crossborder taxes absolutely kill any potential profit.)

A doctor's visit for a cold should not be over a hundred bucks out of pocket even if she has only half assed insurance.
"Baseball gives every American boy a chance to excel, not just to be as good as someone else but to be better than someone else. This is the nature of man and the name of the game." Ted Williams

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West Chester
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by West Chester » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:47 pm

I look at the DMV and realize that those people will be our "health care providers"


No new students will become doctors with government controlled payments for services. Outsourcing of Indian doctors will happen..
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SOBF
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by SOBF » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:19 am

Up there, it was either
free or a trivial fee
, up here it's over a hundred bucks just to step foot in a doctor's office - what're the chances that she skips the doc. altogether if that's the case?
Please tell me you don't believe it's FREE. They pay a pretty hefty tax in Cauckistan.If you think it's expensive here now. Wait until it's "free".

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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by gadflyfisher » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:23 am

eponymous wrote:
gadflyfisher wrote:Having listened to all the released police tapes I have yet to hear the yelling or verbal abuse of the officer.
They also only give us the officers dealings with dispatch not with the suspect. It is still he said he said as to how the confrontational atmosphere began.
It is not exactly a "he said he said". It is a he said he said witnesses and other officers corrobating the one of the he's did say.....jus sayin'.
I have been waiting for witness statements. Where have you seen them. I have felt from the start that if we had some statements from the onlookers that were on scene this whole mess would have been resolved one way or the other long ago.
Not talking other officers here, corroborating your fellow officers lies is part of the job in some places.

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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by stonedfly » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:54 am

eponymous wrote:
I'm curious to know what issues you had here in the US. Were you a US citizen at the time? Did you have a job and insurance? What were the injuries / illnesses?
Yes and yes. I was born in the Tennessee to an anesthesiologist father. I have been insured all my life (obviously). Careful lest you begin to sound sanctimonious.
"We must be careful about what we pretend to be."n --Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by Mattb » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:44 am

eponymous wrote: Matt: To be accurate her visit was not free. She payed taxes out the wazoo for that "free" coverage. (I am considering not doing projects in Canada anymore b/c the GST and other crossborder taxes absolutely kill any potential profit.)
E,

You're correct that the visit wasn't free, it was paid for by taxes. There's no good way to do an apples to apples comparison between the tax rates in the two countries, it's just too easy to skew the facts in either direction. I'll just say that I wouldn't mind if my taxes were a bit higher if it went towards healthcare.

Note: much as Canadian healthcare isn't "free", US healthcare isn't really "paid for by your employer". The cost of insurance is passed on by the company. I've seen some pretty compelling evidence that the rising cost of health care has been a major driver in the wage stagnation we've seen recently.

It's also worth noting that there's a good case to be made that the current health insurance morass is stifling entrepreneurship.
eponymous wrote: A doctor's visit for a cold should not be over a hundred bucks out of pocket even if she has only half assed insurance.
As someone who has half-assed insurance and has had to go to the doctor a few times in the past couple of years, I can assure you that if you step foot in the doctor's office and get out of there for less than $200, you're doing very, very very well. I took a header wading a local river last January and screwed up my finger. Due to the fact that my insurance sucks, I taped it up and waited - for a month. It didn't get better, so I went to the doctor - 20 minutes and an x-ray later I was told it was likely a very bad sprain and there was nothing to be done except wait it out - that'll be $210 please, and yes, we do take Visa - when I showed the receptionist my Insurance card she smiled at me pityingly and told me that my insurance provider doesn't cover doctors visits (which I knew, but it was worth a shot). I'm a surfer and a fisherman, so I spend more time in the sun than is generally advisable, and I have already had a few spots removed (back when I had real insurance). After a close friend recently had some pre-cancerous spots removed I decided to head to a doc for a skin checkup - initial appointment is $185, and that's just to look at me, it gets a lot more expensive from there if anything needs to come off.

It's possible that you do have firsthand experience with paying for medical care out of pocket - maybe you just got lucky, or maybe it was a while ago, but by and large when I hear statements like the one above it's a sure sign that the person making the statement has never actually dealt with health care as an un/underinsured person.
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
-Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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