If you're not proud...

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FlyFish2
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Re: If you're not proud...

Post by FlyFish2 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:38 am

BigCliff wrote:...to hear your President say this, I don't understand how your brain works.
But know this: I will not waste time with those who have made the calculation that it's better politics to kill this plan than improve it. I will not stand by while the special interests use the same old tactics to keep things exactly the way they are. If you misrepresent what's in the plan, we will call you out. And I will not accept the status quo as a solution.

Let me translate it for you. He means that he wants to work with everyone to improve the bill but most democrats especially the Speaker of the house the all time Bitch of bitches will do everything in her power to exclude republicans from the bill process. Also if they do not pass bill before the next set of elections Obama is afraid that he many republicans including dems will vote against it because that is what the majority voters in their districts wants.

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BigCliff
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Re: If you're not proud...

Post by BigCliff » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:44 am

FlyFish2 wrote:
BigCliff wrote:...to hear your President say this, I don't understand how your brain works.
But know this: I will not waste time with those who have made the calculation that it's better politics to kill this plan than improve it. I will not stand by while the special interests use the same old tactics to keep things exactly the way they are. If you misrepresent what's in the plan, we will call you out. And I will not accept the status quo as a solution.

Let me translate it for you. He means that he wants to work with everyone to improve the bill but most democrats especially the Speaker of the house the all time Bitch of bitches will do everything in her power to exclude republicans from the bill process. Also if they do not pass bill before the next set of elections Obama is afraid that he many republicans including dems will vote against it because that is what the majority voters in their districts wants.
That's a barely coherent interpretation, not a translation.

The majority of the GOP in Congress has made it quite clear they are more interested in defeating this dem sponsored bill than they are in improving the current situation. The majority of Americans want this problem fixed, and agree with at least 80% of the dem's proposed ideas.
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Upsetter
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Re: If you're not proud...

Post by Upsetter » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:57 am

IMO, the repubs have been sliding downhill ever since the Contract w/America crew came into power in 94. They have become less and less agreeable (read nasty), more and more intractable (read unwilling to negotiate), more and more reactionary (read fearmongering), and less and less reasonable (read downright crazy). At this point, they rely entirely on fear mongering, name calling, and seem totally incapable of engaging in the finer details of any debate. The repeatedly botched mgmt of any number of issues by the last admin screamed of their incompetency. Its like a gotdam good ole boys club that relies on their special interests to create strawmen, red herring, and boogeymen arguments to push on their constituencies. At this point, they have alienated their productive reps and senators to the point where they recently lost one, and have the others against the boards, worried about the RNC coming after them in the next round of elections for "not cooperating". We are seeing some of the same practices out of the progressive caucus in this healthcare debate, but the dems have gone nowhere near the lengths of the repubs to corral their entire membership into an irrationally radicalized corner.

Re:tort reform, I agree there should be some changes made, but straight caps on recovery is not it, putting a limit on what a person's life is worth is bs. The reform needed is on the front end, doctor staffed medmal review boards that see all malpractice complaints before they enter a courtroom. If a doctor did what he was supposed to and shit still happened, he shouldnt be liable just cause someone died. This is precisely what is driving up costs from this perspective, pissed off people throwin shit at a wall to see if anything sticks, those lawsuits should never see a courtroom. But, if he screwed up, slacked off, etc. and someone died, you shouldnt limit someone's recovery to some arbitrary amount, just cause. All that reform does is protect the inscos' asses, not docs who do things right and shit still goes wrong.

But, IMO, that is not even half the "costs" story. The other half is you go to a nowcare for whatever illness cause its most convenient, they do bloodwork to try and find out what is wrong, something is wrong, so you go to a GP, cause the insco makes you go to him first to get a referral, he does bloodwork to try and figure out what is wrong, something is wrong, then you go to a specialist, and he does bloodwork to see what is wrong, something is wrong, but he's the wrong specialist and sends you back to the GP for another referral, and he does bloodwork again to see if anything has changed, it hasnt, so off to another specialist you go, and so on. Why wasnt the first run of blood work good enough? Why five, six, seven repetitions of the same damn test? Why have to go back to the GP for each new referral? Not for medmal reasons, for reasons that it is faster to just do the test and the insco's will pay for each one, so why not. Now, if YOU had to pay for each one, wouldnt you be asking why the first test results werent forwarded to each new provider you went to see? Inefficiencies in data sharing is exactly why. Each place has your records either on paper or in a closed network electronic database. That kind of inefficiency is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to cost savings, and if you end up in an ER, half-conscious after an injury, and they start ASKING YOU WHAT YOU ARE ALLERGIC TO, and you cant respond, the inefficiency directly leads to potential medmal lawsuits. Ironically, this issue is one that is already being addressed with those 'wasted' stimulus dollars everyone complains about doing nothing for nobody. Go figure!

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jerome
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Re: If you're not proud...

Post by jerome » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:04 am

I try not to give a shit about stuff i can't do anything about.......... I really do, too much cool shit to be doing and thinking about than worrying about what some fuckstick in Washington that i didnt elect fucking up my little world.... Just want to live it up until the fucksticks do destroy it i guess...

One thing i love about Idaho, for most part, they dont give a shit about rest of the world's bullshit.
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Re: If you're not proud...

Post by Mattb » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:08 pm

The Volfish wrote:Prior to his "this is what you need to know" speech last night (not a State of the Union), he held a meeting with members of Congress at the White House. Not a single member of the GOP was asked to attend.
Everytime the repubs have been invited to participate, they've only been interested in flinging poo - are you really surprised that the invites stopped coming? The only republican senator that actually seems to be negotiating in good faith (Snowe) has been invited to the White House regularly these past few days/weeks.
The Volfish wrote: Why has the elephant in the room not been talked about seriously? TORT REFORM is key to reducing costs.
Did you even watch the speech? He did speak to tort reform, or at least malpractice reform, which is the only aspect of tort reform which is germane to the healthcare debate. We'll just ignore the fact that no credible studies put the effect of malpractice insurance/lawsuits at over 5% of the cost - that's still a lot of money, but it's certainly not "key to reducing costs".
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Re: If you're not proud...

Post by BGF » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:25 pm

MattB:

He talked of tort reform for like six lines and said he wanted to do the same thing Bush wanted to do. Try some stuff in some of the states and see how it goes. That was basicly him skimming the subject so he could get back to his plan. Any body in the med field will tell you this is the true problem.

Couple other points and Questions:

How do we pay for this? There is no way he can find enough money in savings to pay for this plan. His own damn party members on the finance commitee has said so. So he lies when he says that there will be no new deficit or spending. How will this system just not go down the same road as medicare/medicade?

Where in his plan will illegals not be covered? They get through all the other checks for govn't handouts so why am I beleived they wont be using the fucking healthcare I am having to pay for.

With all of these new people with insurance along with lowered fees for doctors; why am I to beleive my care will not be in jeoprady?

Everyone has to buy health insurance, like every state forces you to have car insurance. Are you fucking kidding me? When did our country get to the point to command me to buy health insurance? Are they going to tell me how much food i can eat, how many beers i can drink, and how many cigs I can smoke next?

Repubs have put up plenty of plans in the congress and they all got swated back. Tort reform, checks on coverage from the gov't, legis to keep seniors and people with preexisting conditions covered, legis to help people who move to differenet states, jobs, or lose their job to keep insurance. The dems don't give a fuck what the repubs want right now. So they have started swinging poo cause that is how you get the public to pay attention start to voice their oppinion. Otherwise we watch reality tv and sitcoms and ignore what the government is doing.
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Re: If you're not proud...

Post by MTgrayling » Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:52 pm

BGF wrote:MattB:

Any body in the med field will tell you this is the true problem.
Anybody in the med field has self serving interest in tort reform.
BGF wrote:MattB:

The dems don't give a fuck what the repubs want right now.
I SO wish this were true, unfortunately it isn't.
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BigCliff
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Re: If you're not proud...

Post by BigCliff » Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:14 pm

Upsetter wrote:Re:tort reform, I agree there should be some changes made, but straight caps on recovery is not it, putting a limit on what a person's life is worth is bs. The reform needed is on the front end, doctor staffed medmal review boards that see all malpractice complaints before they enter a courtroom. If a doctor did what he was supposed to and shit still happened, he shouldnt be liable just cause someone died..... But, if he screwed up, slacked off, etc. and someone died, you shouldnt limit someone's recovery to some arbitrary amount, just cause. All that reform does is protect the inscos' asses, not docs who do things right and shit still goes wrong.

..... Why wasnt the first run of blood work good enough? Why five, six, seven repetitions of the same damn test? Why have to go back to the GP for each new referral? Not for medmal reasons, for reasons that it is faster to just do the test and the insco's will pay for each one, so why not. Now, if YOU had to pay for each one, wouldnt you be asking why the first test results werent forwarded to each new provider you went to see? Inefficiencies in data sharing is exactly why. Each place has your records either on paper or in a closed network electronic database. That kind of inefficiency is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to cost savings, and if you end up in an ER, half-conscious after an injury, and they start ASKING YOU WHAT YOU ARE ALLERGIC TO, and you cant respond, the inefficiency directly leads to potential medmal lawsuits. Ironically, this issue is one that is already being addressed with those 'wasted' stimulus dollars everyone complains about doing nothing for nobody. Go figure!
Word.

Re: the last 'graph- One would think the "market" forces would have seen the efficiencies this could provide long ago and started working towards a format for electronic medical records. Problem is, since the various vested interests are all so concerned with protecting only their respective piece of the pie, they'll do no such thing. Instead, the "socialist/anti-capitalist/government-healthcare-monopoly" are the ones that finally got the ball rolling on electronic medical records, a great use of modern technology that will eventually produce massive benefit and be viewed as absolutely indespensible. (For other examples, see intercontinental railroad, interstate highways, and the internet)

This is just more evidence that the "Free Market= Good, Government= Bad" dichotomy just ain't that damn simple. The free market simply doesn't accomplish absolutely everything that is needed for the best interests of the general public, because the best interest of their shareholders and the public at large are frequently different. Its not the proper role of the government to always intervene in these cases, but when the problem is causing costs to grow 3x the rate of GDP while crippling American corporations and bankrupting the government in the process, its proper and necessary.
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Mattb
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Re: If you're not proud...

Post by Mattb » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:21 pm

BGF wrote:MattB:

He talked of tort reform for like six lines and said he wanted to do the same thing Bush wanted to do. Try some stuff in some of the states and see how it goes. That was basicly him skimming the subject so he could get back to his plan. Any body in the med field will tell you this is the true problem.
Obama's six lines were more than tort reform really deserved - he was throwing a bone to the conservatives here. If you want to see why I think that, read Ezra Klein's 2006 article on the issue here: http://www.slate.com/id/2145400/fr/rss/ or go right to the definitive source here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226036480/ It's fun to yell about, and everyone hates lawyers, so it's an easy target, but medical tort reform is a red herring.
BGF wrote: How do we pay for this? There is no way he can find enough money in savings to pay for this plan. His own damn party members on the finance commitee has said so. So he lies when he says that there will be no new deficit or spending. How will this system just not go down the same road as medicare/medicade?
That's a valid question, and until there's a final bill available, no one really knows the answer to it. The thing is though - doing nothing will break the bank eventually, so we've got to try. It seems to me that they're at least making to make this thing deficit neutral, which is an improvement over what we've seen recently (cough - medicare part d - cough)

BGF wrote: Where in his plan will illegals not be covered? They get through all the other checks for govn't handouts so why am I beleived they wont be using the fucking healthcare I am having to pay for.
Section 246 of the house bill addresses this, as does the senate bill (sorry, no cite, but it shouldn't be hard to find). Now, we're talking about health insurance. It'll still be a matter of law that anyone that shows up at an ER gets treated. If you disagree with this, that's fine, but I think you'll find it tough to get a politician to sponsor a "let illegals die in ER waiting rooms" bill (although, given the current state of the GOP, maybe not).
BGF wrote: Everyone has to buy health insurance, like every state forces you to have car insurance. Are you fucking kidding me? When did our country get to the point to command me to buy health insurance? Are they going to tell me how much food i can eat, how many beers i can drink, and how many cigs I can smoke next?
This goes back to my point above. As long as we're not willing to let people who could be saved die because they can't pay their healthcare bills, it makes sense to require insurance. Just like you need to have liability insurance for you car so that you can afford it if you crash into someone and hurt them and wreck their car. This has to go hand-in-hand with not letting the insurance companies deny coverage based on preexisting conditions- if they can't deny coverage, and there's no mandate, people would just wait until they got sick, then get insurance, which would really jack up the system.
BGF wrote: Repubs have put up plenty of plans in the congress and they all got swated back. Tort reform, checks on coverage from the gov't, legis to keep seniors and people with preexisting conditions covered, legis to help people who move to differenet states, jobs, or lose their job to keep insurance. The dems don't give a fuck what the repubs want right now. So they have started swinging poo cause that is how you get the public to pay attention start to voice their oppinion. Otherwise we watch reality tv and sitcoms and ignore what the government is doing.
H.R. 3400 was a joke. Selling insurance across state lines is a terrible idea, since it's regulated on a state-by-state basis. What'd happen would be that all the insurers would move to the most lenient state, and set up shop there. We did this with credit cards - how's that worked out for us? The tax credits it offers are a joke, and the idea of chambers of commerce or other small organization setting up purchasing groups is interesting, but by and large they're likely to wind up with pools too small to have any real bargaining power and leave their members stuck paying overinflated costs. While medical tort reform isn't a bad thing in and of itself, setting a hard cap on medical malpractice awards is a bad idea- if some doctor comes back from a 3 martini lunch and kills a patient due to negligence that doc ought to be sued into oblivion.

If the Republicans were offering plans that actually took a crack at controlling costs and helping cover the uninsured, maybe they'd be taken a bit more seriously, but they haven't done that. They've shown, time and again, that they are more interested in being the guys that made Obama fail (no matter what he's trying to do) than they are in helping Americans.
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SOBF
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Re: If you're not proud...

Post by SOBF » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:24 pm

BO is doing a bang up job apparently. Back in July he was saying there were 47 million uninsured....
last night it was only 30 million...give him a few months and all should magically be insured.....he is the messiah after all......
Perhaps he can part the Rio Grand and send all the illegals back and we will be down to 30....not holding my breath

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Mattb
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Re: If you're not proud...

Post by Mattb » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:37 pm

SOBF wrote:BO is doing a bang up job apparently. Back in July he was saying there were 47 million uninsured....
last night it was only 30 million...give him a few months and all should magically be insured.....he is the messiah after all......
Perhaps he can part the Rio Grand and send all the illegals back and we will be down to 30....not holding my breath
You're misremembering what he said. There are ~47 million uninsured people in america, but there are about 30 million uninsured Americans. See the difference?
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SOBF
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Re: If you're not proud...

Post by SOBF » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:41 pm

You're misremembering what he said. There are ~47 million uninsured people in america, but there are about 30 million uninsured Americans. See the difference?
I'm well aware of the difference. Does BO offer anything that will either send these freeloaders back to the third world hellholes they come from....or will they just keep going to the ER for their care.

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