The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

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Smithhammer
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by Smithhammer » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:02 am

From tonight's Larry King interview with that pinnacle of intelligence, Michelle Bachmann (R-MN):

KING: Would you want the Limbaugh, that crowd — would you want them to be your voice as the Republican Party stands in this country?

BACHMANN: Well remember it’s who the American people are referring to Larry. And the American people are looking to voices like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Glenn Beck –

KING: I just told you — it’s 2 percent of America. It’s 2 percent!

BACHMANN: If you look for a critical mass, that’s the movement, that’s the direction that the critical mass is going. And the American people are very smart people.

Bachmann’s answer got a chuckle out of Larry King. “That’s funny,” he said.
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by eponymous » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:14 am

I guess we'll agree to disagree on this matter. Amicably I hope. I don't see the TEA party movement as wildly inconsistent at all. You seem to choose to see the background noise of the nut jobs glomming on to this movement. I freely admit that they exist and they always will. It is the 1/3rd rule. Instead I choose to see the vast majority who are ordinary everyday Americans who don't like the direction in which this country is moving and finally decided to do something about it.

My curiosity is piqued at how much time you spend watching TV news in airport bars? You must travel a lot.

Respectfully;
e
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by eponymous » Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:15 am

By the way, Michelle Bachman does not speak for me.

That said I would hit it in a heartbeat.
"Baseball gives every American boy a chance to excel, not just to be as good as someone else but to be better than someone else. This is the nature of man and the name of the game." Ted Williams

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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by Smithhammer » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:21 am

eponymous wrote: Instead I choose to see the vast majority who are ordinary everyday Americans who don't like the direction in which this country is moving and finally decided to do something about it.
e
E -

So what direction is that, exactly? And more to the point - why is that direction suddenly so different under the current president? That's the whole point I've been making about inconsistency, and about the way the term "socialism" is being carelessly thrown about - that there are all sorts of other "socialist" (or worse) things that previous presidents have committed us to, and yet none of these "ordinary, everyday Americans" seemed outraged by it at all. Until Obama took office, which suddenly sent them into the streets, "fed up and not going to take it anymore."

Why? Tell me, E - what exactly has Obama done that has been so incredibly "socialist?" Specifics please - I'm curious. The economic failure happened under Bush, and the initial bailout was ok'd by Bush, not Obama. So is it public health care then? Why exactly does simply having a public option, for those who want/need it, amount to such a draconian socialist measure that people are taking to the streets in outrage? They don't have to take the public option if the don't want it, as far as I know. Do they know something I don't about how this would affect our taxes? All I've heard on that so far is speculation, mainly coming from those opposed to it. Are there other things he has done that amount to "socialism?" What are they? I'd truly like to know.

Because honestly, I think most of this is really just far right-wing rage over Obama becoming president, and much of this "tea-bag" sentiment has been created by various political orgs using astro-turf tactics (and elements of the media) to advance their own political agenda, under the guise that this truly just honest, "everyday Americans" taking to the streets (there has been plenty of info uncovered about the "grassroots" organizers of many of these events that proves as much). I can understand that there are people who are frustrated out there, who are very concerned about our national debt and spending, etc. - I am too, actually. But where was all this concern over the direction our government was headed previously? We racked up how much national debt on a bullshit, fabricated war? $700 billion is the most recent figure I've heard. Where were the tea-baggers then? Why weren't they concerned about the amount of spending (not to mention the other costs) that happened invading a country that had clearly nothing to do with 9/11? Certainly, as "traditional, conservative, Americans" - self-proclaimed staunch defenders of the original intent of the Constitution, they should have been outraged by something that amounted, on the behalf of our previous government, to something far worse than socialism? Not to mention the rampant, wasteful spending that resulted? No? Where were they then? Or, on another note, how about all the corporate socialism that happened under the last Administration, in the form of bailouts, subsidies and exclusive, no-bid contracts that undermine the very nature of a true free market system that the tea-baggers seem to be so passionate about defending? Where was their outrage then? That's what I'm talking about when I say "inconsistency."

And by the way, I get really tired of the way the phrase, "ordinary, everyday Americans" gets co-opted, typically by politicians and the media, to mean a certain type of American. Bullshit. There is no such thing as an "ordinary, everyday American," unless you're including all of us, which means a lot of different perspectives and beliefs. And I resent the way that it implies that you're not an "ordinary, everyday American" if you think something different. You don't get to use the phrase "ordinary, everyday Americans" to only apply to a certain segment of the political spectrum.
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by BigCliff » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:08 pm

Smithhammer wrote:
eponymous wrote: Instead I choose to see the vast majority who are ordinary everyday Americans who don't like the direction in which this country is moving and finally decided to do something about it.
e
E -

So what direction is that, exactly? And more to the point - why is that direction suddenly so different under the current president? That's the whole point I've been making about inconsistency, and about the way the term "socialism" is being carelessly thrown about - that there are all sorts of other "socialist" (or worse) things that previous presidents have committed us to, and yet none of these "ordinary, everyday Americans" seemed outraged by it at all. Until Obama took office, which suddenly sent them into the streets, "fed up and not going to take it anymore."

Why? Tell me, E - what exactly has Obama done that has been so incredibly "socialist?" Specifics please - I'm curious. The economic failure happened under Bush, and the initial bailout was ok'd by Bush, not Obama. So is it public health care then? Why exactly does simply having a public option, for those who want/need it, amount to such a draconian socialist measure that people are taking to the streets in outrage? They don't have to take the public option if the don't want it, as far as I know. Do they know something I don't about how this would affect our taxes? All I've heard on that so far is speculation, mainly coming from those opposed to it. Are there other things he has done that amount to "socialism?" What are they? I'd truly like to know.

Because honestly, I think most of this is really just far right-wing rage over Obama becoming president, and much of this "tea-bag" sentiment has been created by various political orgs using astro-turf tactics (and elements of the media) to advance their own political agenda, under the guise that this truly just honest, "everyday Americans" taking to the streets (there has been plenty of info uncovered about the "grassroots" organizers of many of these events that proves as much). I can understand that there are people who are frustrated out there, who are very concerned about our national debt and spending, etc. - I am too, actually. But where was all this concern over the direction our government was headed previously? We racked up how much national debt on a bullshit, fabricated war? $700 billion is the most recent figure I've heard. Where were the tea-baggers then? Why weren't they concerned about the amount of spending (not to mention the other costs) that happened invading a country that had clearly nothing to do with 9/11? Certainly, as "traditional, conservative, Americans" - self-proclaimed staunch defenders of the original intent of the Constitution, they should have been outraged by something that amounted, on the behalf of our previous government, to something far worse than socialism? Not to mention the rampant, wasteful spending that resulted? No? Where were they then? Or, on another note, how about all the corporate socialism that happened under the last Administration, in the form of bailouts, subsidies and exclusive, no-bid contracts that undermine the very nature of a true free market system that the tea-baggers seem to be so passionate about defending? Where was their outrage then? That's what I'm talking about when I say "inconsistency."

And by the way, I get really tired of the way the phrase, "ordinary, everyday Americans" gets co-opted, typically by politicians and the media, to mean a certain type of American. Bullshit. There is no such thing as an "ordinary, everyday American," unless you're including all of us, which means a lot of different perspectives and beliefs. And I resent the way that it implies that you're not an "ordinary, everyday American" if you think something different. You don't get to use the phrase "ordinary, everyday Americans" to only apply to a certain segment of the political spectrum.
2nd'd.

Additional info- The "public option" would cover the whopping 5% of Americans without health insurance.

Current estimates for the cost of the Iraq war, including actual costs and forecast costs of healthcare for its veterans are more generally in the ballpark of $2.5 TRILLION.

Here's some perspective from an actual conservative (Thatcher/Eisenhower type)- http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/t ... -tory.html
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by Upsetter » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:02 pm

Smithhammer wrote:So what direction is that, exactly? And more to the point - why is that direction suddenly so different under the current president? That's the whole point I've been making about inconsistency, and about the way the term "socialism" is being carelessly thrown about - that there are all sorts of other "socialist" (or worse) things that previous presidents have committed us to, and yet none of these "ordinary, everyday Americans" seemed outraged by it at all. Until Obama took office, which suddenly sent them into the streets, "fed up and not going to take it anymore."

Because honestly, I think most of this is really just far right-wing rage over Obama becoming president, and much of this "tea-bag" sentiment has been created by various political orgs using astro-turf tactics (and elements of the media) to advance their own political agenda, under the guise that this truly just honest, "everyday Americans" taking to the streets (there has been plenty of info uncovered about the "grassroots" organizers of many of these events that proves as much).

And I resent the way that it implies that you're not an "ordinary, everyday American" if you think something different. You don't get to use the phrase "ordinary, everyday Americans" to only apply to a certain segment of the political spectrum.
Fault Palin for that, she started that dichotomy during the election cycle, claiming she represented red-blooded americans and everybody else was just a bunch of commie pinkos. And specifically, those groups you are referring to are Freedomworks and Americans for Prosperity, they are behind most of this tea bagger crap. Lastly, rather than socialism, I would describe every govt we have had since the end of the Carter admin as "corporatist", or supporters of corporate welfare above and beyond that of the voting populous, thinking those benes would then 'trickle down'. Govt benes, or our tax dollars, flow directly to the biggest campaign contributors and, apparently, the tea baggers are unaware of the fact that health ins corporations are EXACTLY who is benefitting by their actions in this healthcare debate. They may think they are defending a system that isnt broken, but that is just because they are not CURRENTLY in a position to be victimized by it, that could change in an instant. A revealing article about corporatism, the reality of American socialism over the past 30 years.

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=22594

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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by BigCliff » Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:04 pm

Upsetter wrote:
Smithhammer wrote:.....
And I resent the way that it implies that you're not an "ordinary, everyday American" if you think something different. You don't get to use the phrase "ordinary, everyday Americans" to only apply to a certain segment of the political spectrum.
Fault Palin for that, she started that dichotomy during the election cycle, claiming she represented red-blooded americans and everybody else was just a bunch of commie pinkos. And specifically, those groups you are referring to are Freedomworks and Americans for Prosperity, they are behind most of this tea bagger crap. Lastly, rather than socialism, I would describe every govt we have had since the end of the Carter admin as "corporatist", or supporters of corporate welfare above and beyond that of the voting populous, thinking those benes would then 'trickle down'. Govt benes, or our tax dollars, flow directly to the biggest campaign contributors and, apparently, the tea baggers are unaware of the fact that health ins corporations are EXACTLY who is benefitting by their actions in this healthcare debate. They may think they are defending a system that isnt broken, but that is just because they are not CURRENTLY in a position to be victimized by it, that could change in an instant. A revealing article about corporatism, the reality of American socialism over the past 30 years.

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=22594
Hell, W rode that pony to re-election in 2004, long before most of us ever heard of the Killa/Thrilla/Drilla from Wasilla.

I think the anti-corporatist ideas yer bringing up are at the heart of many members of what's now the TEA crowd, that were Ron Paul backers before that. But it damn sure seemed both more logical and sincere when it was the Ron Paul show and not the Glenn Beck show.

If Ron Paul ran for Governor of Texas, I might even vote for him. (I'd be pretty concerned about sufficient suspension on my car and what would happen to the TP&W budget though)
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by Upsetter » Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:01 pm

Could be, I cant remember cause I could give a shit, GW was a dipshit and so is Palin. Further, if the tea crowd is in fact anti-corporatist, they should say so, cause they sound like dumbasses screaming about socialism, which is not what is going on in the healthcare debate or much else for that matter. Further, they need to rail against repubs just like they do against dems, all are guilty save a few. Ironically, aside from Ron Paul, the two most dangerous guys are probably dems, Russ Feingold and this counterweight to the liar, Joe Wilson, Alan Grayson out of Florida. Besides his "dont get sick and if you do, die quickly" speech, they guy also slipped broadening language into the bill to kill funding for Acorn that will terminate contracts with any corporation/group/organization that has been found to have defrauded the govt in several different ways. That will be huge and will effectively cancel most of the military industrial complex's contracts with govco, including Blackwater, Halliburton, and KBR, Lockheed, and Boeing, plus a whole lot more.

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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by ditchdoc » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:14 pm

Blinders huh? Least I can take mine off.
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by eponymous » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:58 am

First of all I don’t recall ever branding the president a socialist so I don’t feel the need to respond directly to that issue (though I am too drunk to avoid it). Not to brand him an outright socialist – I don’t think he is – but he is clearly taking more than baby steps in that direction.

Socialism has many definitions, one being greater government control over industry and the economy intended to “balance out” the nation’s collective wealth. I would say the Mr. Obama is certainly more in this camp than was Mr. Bush (and why do we have always have to bring this back to him. He is not the president anymore.) It cannot be denied that W created major deficits but I would say the future deficit will be just a tad greater as a result of the Obama stimulus plan. I don’t think that can be argued.

Last time I checked the government had some pretty new and deep tentacles into a major industry in the country and it has been dictating what and how its products should be manufactured. There is also quite a bit of new and overarching direct government involvement in our banking industry. The energy sector will come next. Can anyone deny that? Is that socialism? You tell me.

With respect to W’s role and the TEA party folk’s reaction to “his” stimulus and involvement I will again say that the sources of media that you rely on are clearly not all the same as mine. I heard folks who were flat out outraged by it and said let the bastards go out of business – no bailouts – period. Do you not recall that? I do. I was one of those folks.

In terms of a public healthcare option, it is my opinion that healthcare is not a right but an individual responsibility – except in the case of those who truly cannot take care of themselves. It is not my (nor your) responsibility to take care of someone else’s family unless you or I choose to do it on your own. The government should not take money from me or you to give to someone else who did not earn it.

With respect to “everyday Americans” I did not mean to imply as you maybe think I did that I was talking about conservatives or republicans or McCain’s bananas. You may want to make it that, but it is not. I’ll reiterate what I’ve tried to get across (but have clearly failed at thus far) is that there are people at these rallies from all types of backgrounds and political persuasions – Rs, Ds, Is and Us who are saying, “enough is enough”. As you said – people with different perspectives and beliefs. Many of you are pegging them all as far right nuts who have no right to bitch – please correct me if I am wrong in that assertion and I’ll give the mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa deal as they say in Portugal. I really don’t think they are all whack jobs and I do think many have a legitimate and defensible point of view. Call it right or wrong for all I care but it is defensible – at least as I see it.

The line from capitalism to socialism is very blurry in this country but make no mistake there is a line. There has to be by definition. Some think that line has finally been crossed and are speaking out. Am I mistaken that some of you do not think it has been crossed and seem angry with those who do and delegitimize their sentiments by calling them lazy and stupid?

All I’m saying is that I don’t see it the same way some of you do. I’m not so far right that I can’t see things from the left. I try to appreciate that angle until it starts to become obtuse – as it seems to have here. As I’ve said before when I show up at Town Hall to vote, I grab the D ballot and I voted for Obama in the primary.

This whole thing started with a blanket condemnation of the TEA part movement and I think it is a very narrow (and inaccurate) viewpoint to think they are all fuck-knuckles. I also think it is grossly unfair and disingenuous to imply that anyone who disagrees with the president or his stated policies is a racist. (Not saying that you did though many very prominent folks hold and voice that opinion.)

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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by Smithhammer » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:17 pm

E -

I don't doubt that there are plenty of intelligent people out there who share these sentiments about government spending being out of control, etc. I can respect those folks, whether I agree with them or not. But at the same time, it's worth noting that a lot of "ordinary, everyday Americans" see the tea-bag movement as being dominated by extremists and wingnuts, and for good reason, and that's a PR problem worth taking seriously if you are someone who is truly invested in those ideas. Are there people involved that wouldn't fall in to either category? Sure. But if they want to make this any sort of legitimate movement that will really be taken seriously, as opposed to being fodder for sensationalistic faux news coverage, then they clearly have a major PR problem. Because as it is, the extremist/wingnut faction is undermining whatever traction those with valid, realistic perspectives, and those capable of having rational conversations, might have. Tighten up the ship, or let it be squandered by the Michelle Bachmann/Glenn Beck/birther/etc. dipshits, which is what seems to be happening.

And another thought - deciding to call the movement "tea-bagging" has got to be the stupidest PR mis-step I can think of in recent memory. Find a new name (and recent attempts to call it "tea-party" instead of "tea-bag" aren't really doing much...).
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by eponymous » Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:55 pm

It was dubbed the teabagging movement rather ingraciously by Jeanine Garafalo on Olbermann's show not by the movement itself. Again I think we need to agree to disagree on this one. I respectfully think you have it wrong b/c you are clearly not hearing all sides on the issue.

Hope I answered your questions.

Horse......really.......dead.

E
"Baseball gives every American boy a chance to excel, not just to be as good as someone else but to be better than someone else. This is the nature of man and the name of the game." Ted Williams

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