The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

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West Chester
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by West Chester » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:04 pm

DayTripper wrote:* Socialist Byproducts of Government Investment Such as Duct Tape and Velcro (Nazi-NASA Inventions)
No... for this line
If said posting of nude women includes her holding fish AND a large set of antlers (Non-photoshopped), then it can stay. Otherwise, No nudity on the Drake board. Skimpy? OK. Side-boob? Approved. -nemo

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SOBF
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by SOBF » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:08 pm

I'd be happy to sign that pledge if the gummint would sign this one...
We The Fuckheads in DC will only tax you enough to pay for a military and a Judicial system and we will stay out of your life.

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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by BigCliff » Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:52 pm

SOBF wrote:I'd be happy to sign that pledge if the gummint would sign this one...
We The Fuckheads in DC will only tax you enough to pay for a military and a Judicial system and we will stay out of your life.
Yeah, air traffic control, interstate highways, and flood levees are silly.
Buy better hooks and bourbon.

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eponymous
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by eponymous » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:13 pm

Good adds to what the feds should hold purview over - ATC and interstates should be included. Not so sure about levees. Don't know enough about them but couldn't the states take care of that on their own? There may be a good reason to have them covered federally and not state but I'd need to hear it first.
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by SOBF » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:27 pm

Yeah, air traffic control, interstate highways, and flood levees are silly.
Guess I missed a couple things.

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Smithhammer
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by Smithhammer » Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:14 pm

eponymous wrote:Good adds to what the feds should hold purview over - ATC and interstates should be included. Not so sure about levees. Don't know enough about them but couldn't the states take care of that on their own? There may be a good reason to have them covered federally and not state but I'd need to hear it first.
Why draw a line between what services the Fed provides and what State government provides? I mean, if you (and I don't mean you personally, E) are really a staunch teabagger, by what logic would State-provided services be more acceptable?

I think Upsetter hit the nail on the head. The gross inconsistencies in the "teabag" line of reasoning are ridiculous. They'll complain about a public option for health care being "socialist" but they'll also bitch along with everyone else if their roads aren't maintained, if airports shut down, etc. This isn't a rational movement - it's entirely emotional.

Case in point - I'm currently involved in a fight to keep a dam from being built on a local river. Some local irrigators say it is needed. I'm willing to bet that just about all of these folks would consider themselves "conservative" at the very least, and a number of them would be the type to loudly complain about Obama's "socialism." Yet, in pleading with the State and the Bureau of Rec to spend upwards of a billion dollars to provide them with their local water needs, they see no contradiction. In a real teabag world, shouldn't those irrigators be expected to pool their resources and pay for the dam themselves, especially if they are the ones using the resource, instead of expecting the government (and us taxpayers) to do it for them? How would expecting the government to provide the dam not fall under the same blanket definition of "socialism" being tossed around for so many other things right now?

Or, to use your example, E - why should the states pay for levees? Or any level of government at all? Shouldn't that be up to the individuals of the community to pay for themselves? And if it's a poor community that can't afford to pool their resources to adequately protect their neighborhood the way that wealthier communities could afford to, well, isn't that really just a reflection of their lack of personal responsibility and work ethic? I hear the very same insinuation being applied to an affordable, government-run health care option all the time.
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by eponymous » Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:19 pm

I think the gov't that governs the closest is the one that governs the best. I'm not totally against gov't. It definitely must play a role in our lives. The question is how big a role.

I just think that a bloated federal gov't is inefficient and that the power should rest more with the states. It makes very little sense to me that we send money to the fed and they send it back to us - less the cost of processing the money for programs and projects that we may or may not need or want. Again, makes very little sense for the feds to give money to pay for state and or local projects / programs. Administrate those same projects and programs at the local or state level and we all get more bang for our taxed buck. That's all I'm saying with respect to this thread. Catch what I'm cookin', Bro.
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by eponymous » Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:31 pm

By the way - with respect to the roads thing - their complaint could in fact be that they pay taxes yet the roads are not maintained. It is all but the very few "conservatives" who would not consider roads and infrastructure as one of functions a government actually does play in our lives.

When someone pays a big chunk of their earnings and still gets shitty roads then holding a sign in complaint is not hypocritical in my book. It is in fact a very American thing to do.

With you on the dam thing though. (at least as you describe it) Projects for the benefit of the few should be paid for by the few who benefit - though that would eventually work its way down to us all through the cost of higher prices.

I saw an interesting vid today in of all places a regional managment team meeting for my company. It was about the 2 sides of the American RIver Dam issue in California (I think.) Seems like they got together on the issues - listened to one another and respected each others positions and came up with a creative solution they both could live with. Maybe that is the filmmaker's fantasy take on what really happened but it looked like a good consensus process to me.

e
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Smithhammer
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by Smithhammer » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:24 pm

eponymous wrote:I think the gov't that governs the closest is the one that governs the best. I'm not totally against gov't. It definitely must play a role in our lives. The question is how big a role.

I just think that a bloated federal gov't is inefficient and that the power should rest more with the states. It makes very little sense to me that we send money to the fed and they send it back to us - less the cost of processing the money for programs and projects that we may or may not need or want. Again, makes very little sense for the feds to give money to pay for state and or local projects / programs. Administrate those same projects and programs at the local or state level and we all get more bang for our taxed buck. That's all I'm saying with respect to this thread. Catch what I'm cookin', Bro.
Actually, I really agree with you. I think more could/should be handled at more local/regional/state levels. My comment is aimed more that the gut-level reaction we seem to be seeing from a lot of the teabag crowd that paints all government involvement in anything as bad. For one, it's ignorant of how much the government does for us (which isn't a bad thing in many cases) and it also just seems to be an emotional one as opposed to a position coming from a consistent logic. If there was consistency to it, I could respect it even if I don't agree with it, but it really just seems to be a stupid, populist form of whining and misplaced anger, which I can't get with at all.
eponymous wrote: When someone pays a big chunk of their earnings and still gets shitty roads then holding a sign in complaint is not hypocritical in my book. It is in fact a very American thing to do.e
I agree. If the services provided are shitty, we have every right to hold the provider to a high standard, no matter who it is, public or private.
eponymous wrote: I saw an interesting vid today in of all places a regional managment team meeting for my company. It was about the 2 sides of the American RIver Dam issue in California (I think.) Seems like they got together on the issues - listened to one another and respected each others positions and came up with a creative solution they both could live with. Maybe that is the filmmaker's fantasy take on what really happened but it looked like a good consensus process to me.
e
I've been seeing a lot of encouraging examples of this lately, and in many cases, I don't think it's a fantasy - I think it's the wave of the future. The Wyoming Range Legacy Act that I wrote about in the last Drake is one example of a diverse coalition, who would often be at odds with each other, coming together and finding common ground to accomplish a great thing. There are some other good examples going on right now in Montana. In the case of the dam I was referencing, I think there is also the potential for a more collaborative effort, rather than the tired old, "pro-dam vs. anti-dam" polemic. One group I'm working with is seeking to do just that by developing viable alternatives to address water needs which are actually much more economical (such as a more concerted effort at aquifer recharge), and working with local irrigators and water managers to get them on board, without the need for another dam to be built.
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by Upsetter » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:53 am

A few things I would add to this discussion regarding fed vs private vs state/local.

First, govt/fed vs private, epo touched on the ability to protest shitty service by govco, I agree that is an important function, we should be able to let govco know when we are dissatisfied with the service provided. I would then go on to say that rectifying the current inability to do this is a central pillar of the health ins reform effort going on in DC right now. In alot of places, you either face a monopolistic situation via your employer offering you what they do, or you face a finely tuned oligopoly in the individual market, where you get little choice between the five or six insco's you have in a given state, and they all ream your ass out on pre-existing conditions. Not much choice there. When it does no good to complain to your service provider, and they have a disconcerting amount of power via their contracts of adhesion that give them six different ways to screw you out of coverage, something needs to change.

Second, turning to the state/local govt vs fed, I also find it troubling when you are dealing with a service that govco is providing that could be considered vital to the health of the economy and/or individuals, that this service can be denied in a local/state jurisdiction because of the whims of a local/statewide majority. At some point we have to say this is a necessary service and it cannot be denied because this particular population is too cheap, too religious, or whatever, forcing people to travel to another state/municipality to acquire said service. I believe this is another issue being addressed by health ins reform. State control over insco regulation has also erected barriers against the consumer arriving at effective choice as you cannot cross state lines in your search, and you find disconcerting disparities in the rules inscos must operate under from state to state, including the existence of monopolies. Do you realize there are currently only two specific industry wide exemptions from federal anti-trust laws? One is major league baseball, the other is health insurers. Kinda fucked up if you ask me.

Finally, while epo may seemingly have a point that there is no reason to pay money to the fed, only to have it funneled back to the states, when you look at the finer details of why the fed asserted control over this money, it was typically to coerce the states to behave in a certain way. Highway dollars for drunk driving/seatbelt laws is a perfect example of this, and MT is a long time holdout. We JUST repealed our open container law (which I thought rocked, cause nothing like a beer on the drive home, right?) but there is also a compelling argument to be made that drinking while driving probably isnt a good idea, so there you have it. MT gave up fed highway monies for a couple of decades because of this resistance, finally caved in and was awarded millions to improve roads accordingly. And then, when you think about jim crow, you really begin to realize how nasty things could get in certain parts of our country if we devolved control over commerce to the state level.

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eponymous
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by eponymous » Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:29 pm

Upsetter wrote: when you look at the finer details of why the fed asserted control over this money, it was typically to coerce the states to behave in a certain way.
Don't know about you but that sends chills up my spine. Don't mean to go all Glen Beck on ya but t hat is EXACTLY why power needs to remain with the states.......If not we should simply remove all state boundaries and be exactly the same and do exactly what govco tells us to do......flipping scary......absolutely flipping scary.
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Re: The Teabaggeer Socialist Free Purity Pledge

Post by upstanding » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:52 pm

All states are not economically equal only equal politically...in the Senate but not the House. Two senators in utah, montana, south/north dakota...vis a vis New York, California, yes even Texas, Pennsylvania, Illinois....teapots are shallow minds and like shallow fish(fresh) are small but of intellect and not merely size. Why must they need a hate? Red menace, fellow travelers, yellow peril, evil empire...gone... now what? My liberal, bill of rights compass directs rationality with them but I'm sick of the dimwits. Pack them off to internment camps in Utah; fence the state off to keep them in and there's still enough streams in Montana, Colorado, Wyoming and Idaho for those who enjoy a flaccid pull of the freswhwater.

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