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By Plow
#291987
BigCliff wrote:Shu already posted the link bud.
Well damn him! I got to stop working so hard and waste more time on the drake. My link is now a loop back to Shu's - Drake's first link bump or something like that.
#292082
Not to say I'm not all for things that give us cleaner air and cleaner water, but when a doomsday scenario is painted by a group and that group does everything it can do do get worldwide legislation passed that it says is necessary to stop this doomsday scenario and that legislation will result in the massive shift of political and economic power to that group I get a little curious about the doomesday scenario. Jus sayin. :coffee
#292267
Epo, something to think about....regarding scenarios, if you read the ipcc report and everyone else in the gw debate, they come up with lots of different scenarios but all of them have the same flaws: they are all based on computer models trying to extrapolate from the past into the future and all of them try to predict what an incredibly complex chaotic system will do in reaction to any number of climatic drivers, change any of the inputs and get different outputs.

This is why I dont listen to the scenarios, they should just admit that those are their best guess. All we need to know is that CO2 is a GHG (and all that entails) and that we pump thousands of gigatons into the air every year to know that we are messing with the balance of things and for every action there is a reaction, end of story, from there it is manifest destiny. I say we shouldnt mess with the natural balance of things any more than we have to and the almighty dollar can go fuck itself, esp rich fucks who just wanna get richer and dont give a damn what damage they cause doin it, greed is an ugly motivator.

Take your first statement, combined with the other reasons we have for getting off oil at least, and run with it, dont worry about the scenarios. Life might get a bit more expensive as the corps that run things now see their gravy train leaving the station and gouge us for all we're worth, kinda like a couple years ago, but that is gonna happen no matter what, its just a matter of timing and whether its on our terms or not.
User avatar
By SLSS
#292271
Upsetter wrote:Epo, something to think about....regarding scenarios, if you read the ipcc report and everyone else in the gw debate, they come up with lots of different scenarios but all of them have the same flaws: they are all based on computer models trying to extrapolate from the past into the future and all of them try to predict what an incredibly complex chaotic system will do in reaction to any number of climatic drivers, change any of the inputs and get different outputs.

This is why I dont listen to the scenarios, they should just admit that those are their best guess. All we need to know is that CO2 is a GHG (and all that entails) and that we pump thousands of gigatons into the air every year to know that we are messing with the balance of things and for every action there is a reaction, end of story, from there it is manifest destiny. I say we shouldnt mess with the natural balance of things any more than we have to and the almighty dollar can go fuck itself, esp rich fucks who just wanna get richer and dont give a damn what damage they cause doin it, greed is an ugly motivator.

Take your first statement, combined with the other reasons we have for getting off oil at least, and run with it, dont worry about the scenarios. Life might get a bit more expensive as the corps that run things now see their gravy train leaving the station and gouge us for all we're worth, kinda like a couple years ago, but that is gonna happen no matter what, its just a matter of timing and whether its on our terms or not.
Agree.
#292422
Upsetter wrote:dont worry about the scenarios.
Upsetter wrote:Life might get a bit more expensive as the corps that run things now see their gravy train leaving the station and gouge us for all we're worth, kinda like a couple years ago, but that is gonna happen no matter what, its just a matter of timing and whether its on our terms or not.
I can't get behind the "just don't worry about it reasoning". The point of my post is that I feel a gouging coming by legislative mandate. When I have a choice to not be gouged or to at least limit the gouging by free market pricipals so be it. That is economics 101 and the basis for our society. When the gouging is government mandated - particularly not my own government - then I can't get behind it. Just the opposite. I need to do whatever I can to make sure it is on my terms. I should decide what I do with my money as you should decide what to do with yours. Not some fucktard in Botswana who will use it to buy Grey Goose and a harem of fluffers. (I prefer Bombay Sapphire, but I don't begrudge him the fluffers - just not on money that was confiscated from me. I need it to buy gin.)

Again, the just don't worry about it while we tax you back to the pleistocene couse you don't know what's good for you and we do is not my thing. Call me crazy. That is why the 41st vote is so important.

e
User avatar
By m.b.
#292451
eponymous wrote:I can't get behind the "just don't worry about it reasoning". The point of my post is that I feel a gouging coming by legislative mandate. When I have a choice to not be gouged or to at least limit the gouging by free market pricipals so be it. That is economics 101 and the basis for our society. When the gouging is government mandated - particularly not my own government - then I can't get behind it. Just the opposite. I need to do whatever I can to make sure it is on my terms. I should decide what I do with my money as you should decide what to do with yours. Not some fucktard in Botswana who will use it to buy Grey Goose and a harem of fluffers. (I prefer Bombay Sapphire, but I don't begrudge him the fluffers - just not on money that was confiscated from me. I need it to buy gin.)

Again, the just don't worry about it while we tax you back to the pleistocene couse you don't know what's good for you and we do is not my thing. Call me crazy. That is why the 41st vote is so important.

e
that makes absolutely no sense.

have you been listening to rush limbaugh/hannity/beck again?
#292452
Believe it or not I actually did listen to el rushbo this week for an hour or so which I do very rarely. I had a meeting in Canuckistan on Monday and he was all I could get on my drive from Toronto to bumfuck. Either that or listen to a couple of chets dishing hawkey tawk.
#292596
eponymous wrote:The point of my post is that I feel a gouging coming by legislative mandate. When I have a choice to not be gouged or to at least limit the gouging by free market pricipals so be it.
You have no choice either way, and there is no such thing as a free market, has never been one in this country. This is a battle between govt's and huge corporations, we sit on the sidelines and get gouged either way. It is funny to me how corporations are able to have complete control of our govt and our society, and when govt struggles against that control, they are the evil ones.

Corporations are increasingly becoming unaccountable to anyone, even their shareholders. The biggest ones are anti-competitive, they try to kill the markets they exist in, seeking control not by outcompeting or being the best, but thru hostile takeovers, economies of scale, and other anti-competitive behavior that should be illegal. Are those corporations who you seek to answer to? Who you would like to dictate your choices to you?

It is a lesser of two evils in this equation, the free market is defined by corporatism, and it is no panacea. It created the robber baron era and the great depression before govt fought back and busted the trusts and by waging war, or putting most everyone in the govts employ, brought us out of the depression. Since then, most of the scientific and technological advancements in this country were discovered by NASA and the military, or private companies working on contract for the govt. What exactly has the free market given us in the way of true innovation since the automobile? Pure R&D doesnt turn a profit, it wont happen by the free market alone until its too late.

The question I ask myself is: should we steer the ship now, trying to disrupt the economy as little as possible while still realizing the paradigm shift we need to realize or do we let the shortsighted markets keep plugging away until we see the wall coming and try to radically steer ourselves out of harms way, causing severe disruption to the global economy. Whether this comes by the end of oil or catastrophic weather events is irrelevant, which is why I say dont worry about the scenarios. There is one scenario that is a guarantee, oil will run out, so will natural gas, and so will coal, and they all pollute, CO2 notwithstanding.
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