GW science is just like sausage making…

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West Chester
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Re: GW science is just like sausage making…

Post by West Chester » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:40 am

Upsetter wrote: You have no choice either way, and there is no such thing as a free market, has never been one in this country. This is a battle between govt's and huge corporations, we sit on the sidelines and get gouged either way. It is funny to me how corporations are able to have complete control of our govt and our society, and when govt struggles against that control, they are the evil ones. Does Walmart gouge you? How does Exxon have complete control over our government?

Corporations are increasingly becoming unaccountable to anyone, even their shareholders. The biggest ones are anti-competitiveMicrosoft killed its competitors, cause apple's operating system sucks... waah, they try to kill the markets they exist in, seeking control not by outcompeting or being the best, but thru hostile takeovers, economies of scale, and other anti-competitive behavior that should be illegal. Are those corporations who you seek to answer to? Who you would like to dictate your choices to you? Economies of scale is a bad thing? It should be illegal? Do you actually think about what you are saying? Do you realize how expensive every thing would be if it had to be made by hand? Good luck buying a t-shirt for under a hundred bucks if a person has to sheer the sheep with scissors, make the thread on a hand loom, weave the thread into cloth, cut the cloth with scissors, sew together your t-shirt, deliver it to you by hand. Think about what you are saying, technology has given every company advantages in production capacities in order for you to be able to buy goods at low prices. What good/service do you feel you are gouged by? Legal fees- I feel I am gouged by them.

It is a lesser of two evils in this equation, the free market is defined by corporatism, and it is no panacea. It created the robber baron era and the great depression before govt fought back and busted the trusts and by waging war, or putting most everyone in the govts employ,Where do you think government gets money to employ people?? By TAXING corporations brought us out of the depression. Since then, most of the scientific and technological advancements in this country were discovered by NASA and the military, or private companies working on contract for the govt. What exactly has the free market given us in the way of true innovation since the automobile? How about the pharma companies? Pure R&D doesnt turn a profit,Pharam spends billions on R&D to cure your illnesses it wont happen by the free market alone until its too late. too late for what?

The question I ask myself is: should we steer the ship nowYeah, BHO is the captain of the ship, but he is steering us towards the rocks, trying to disrupt the economy Yes he isas little as possible while still realizing the paradigm shift we need to realize or do we let the shortsighted markets keep plugging away until we see the wall coming and try to radically steer ourselves out of harms way, causing severe disruption to the global economy.Hum... the global economy allows our corporations to achieve economies of scale, I thought that should be illegal Whether this comes by the end of oil or catastrophic weather events is irrelevant, which is why I say dont worry about the scenarios. There is one scenario that is a guarantee, oil will run outHow can you guarantee this?, so will natural gasHow do you know, and so will coalnew coal fields are found all the time, and they all polluteSure, toxins are releaed into the atmosphere when carbon based fuels are burned, you should stop heating your home, driving your car and cooking your dinner. You lead the way, I will follow., CO2 Quit exhaling notwithstanding.

Wow just wow....
If said posting of nude women includes her holding fish AND a large set of antlers (Non-photoshopped), then it can stay. Otherwise, No nudity on the Drake board. Skimpy? OK. Side-boob? Approved. -nemo

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RFA
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Re: GW science is just like sausage making…

Post by RFA » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:26 am

Yeah, BHO is the captain of the ship, but he is steering us towards the rocks
Dude - we hit the rocks over a year and a half ago.
As it turns out, God? He was a squirrel. A big 'ol meaty one. "I found god, he used to say"

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Upsetter
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Re: GW science is just like sausage making…

Post by Upsetter » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:53 am

West Chester wrote: Does Walmart gouge you? How does Exxon have complete control over our government?
Are you being intentionally obtuse? WTF does walmart have to do with our energy situation? Pay attention. Regarding exxon:
The Bush administration describes Exxon as the biggest opponent of mandatory reductions of global warming pollution. Yet, it also thanks Exxon for its “active involvement” in the crafting of U.S. climate policy. (6)

ExxonMobil's denial of global warming started well over a decade ago under former CEO Lee Raymond. In 1990, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the world's foremost authority, came out with its first assessment of global warming and urged governments to cut greenhouse gases by 60 to 80 percent. It was around then that Exxon and Mobil began a multi-million dollar disinformation campaign to confuse the science and block government action. (7)

When CEO Rex Tillerson took over in January 2006 he inherited the policy. Taking a page from the playbook of the tobacco industry, Exxon still spends millions on front groups that deceive the public and create the illusion of a debate about the science of global warming. In 2006, Mr. Tillerson told shareholders that global warming does not pose a financial risk to the company. (8) Despite the scientific consensus worldwide that global warming pollution must be dramatically cut, Mr. Tillerson ignores the issue by insisting that "because of their abundance and economic advantages fossil fuels will remain the dominant sources of energy for many decades to come." (9)

ExxonMobil does not participate in any voluntary reporting systems of global warming pollution nor does it set public reduction targets like the other oil giants. The company's contribution to global warming is estimated to be five percent of the world's total. (10)

ExxonMobil executives are adamantly against U.S. energy independence, despite its potentially positive impact on U.S. national security. They argue instead for continued dependence on oil producing nations, such as Saudi Arabia where the company has sunk heavy investments. (11) Saudi Arabia holds 22.3 percent of the world's remaining oil reserves.

With an unsubstantiated declaration that no amount of alternatives will ever replace oil and gas, Exxon's current leadership dismisses the historical ingenuity of the American people to overcome formidable challenges. The company's arguments ignore myriad proposals that would dramatically reduce America's oil demand (utilizing fuel economy and energy efficiency) and increase the availability of renewable alternatives (particularly wind, solar, and biomass).

Although it lobbies against U.S. energy independence, Exxon also lobbies in favor of opening the Arctic Refuge and other sensitive areas to oil drilling. At times, the company argues that opening the Arctic would improve energy independence, which the U.S. Energy Information Administration has countered. Directly after meeting with CEO Rex Tillerson in May 2006, House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-IL) called on Congress to concentrate on prying open the Arctic Refuge. Today, ExxonMobil is the only oil giant still a member of Arctic Power, the single-issue lobby group devoted to opening the Refuge to drilling. BP, Chevron and ConocoPhillips all pulled out under pressure from their shareholders and the public.
You tell me, any of these ideas seems like they have any influence on our govt's direction for this country? They spend 6-7 million a year on lobbying, receive 113 billion in subsidies, and are a good part of the reason why we are engaged in two wars in the ME.

Here, read this, its written by a libertarian who is in favor of truly free markets, not the bullshit we have had in this country since the dominance of the railroads, see what he has to say about corporatism: http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=22594

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Upsetter
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Re: GW science is just like sausage making…

Post by Upsetter » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:56 am

West Chester wrote:[quoteThere is one scenario that is a guarantee, oil will run outHow can you guarantee this?, so will natural gasHow do you know, and so will coalnew coal fields are found all the time - Yep, never been so sure of anything in my life. I gotta wonder what you are smoking to think that any of those resources are infinitely available.

Wow just wow....
Ditto. :stupid

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West Chester
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Re: GW science is just like sausage making…

Post by West Chester » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:05 pm

Upsetter wrote:There is one scenario that is a guarantee, oil will run out, so will natural gas, and so will coal Yep, never been so sure of anything in my life. I gotta wonder what you are smoking to think that any of those resources are infinitely available.
Are you serious?? You made those outlandish statements No one knows if the oil and natural gas will run dry or if the earth makes it constantly. You say you have never been so sure in your life but how do you know? What scientific facts do YOU have that proves this? I just asked for facts backing up your theory that your portrayed as truth.

I personally don't know if oil/gas wells will dry up tomorrow or they will pump for thousands of years longer. So, therefore, I don't make statements or guarantees about it.
If said posting of nude women includes her holding fish AND a large set of antlers (Non-photoshopped), then it can stay. Otherwise, No nudity on the Drake board. Skimpy? OK. Side-boob? Approved. -nemo

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Re: GW science is just like sausage making…

Post by Upsetter » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:23 pm

Anti-competitive practices

Dumping, where a company sells a product in a competitive market at a loss. Though the company loses money for each sale, the company hopes to force other competitors out of the market, after which the company would be free to raise prices for a greater profit.
Exclusive dealing, where a retailer or wholesaler is obliged by contract to only purchase from the contracted supplier.
Barriers to entry (to an industry) designed to avoid the competition that new entrants would bring.
Price fixing, where companies collude to set prices, effectively dismantling the free market.
Refusal to deal, e.g., two companies agree not to use a certain vendor
Dividing territories
Limit Pricing, where the price is set by a monopolist at a level intended to discourage entry into a market.
Tying, where products that aren't naturally related must be purchased together.
Resale price maintenance, where resellers are not allowed to set prices independently.
Coercive monopoly - all potential competition is barred from entering the market
Government-granted monopoly - a private individual or firm to be the sole provider
Government monopoly - the state is the sole provider

Also criticized are:

Absorption of a competitor or competing technology, where the powerful firm effectively co-opts or swallows its competitor rather than see it either compete directly or be absorbed by another firm.
Subsidies from government which allow a firm to function without being profitable, giving them an advantage over competition or effectively barring competition
Regulations which place costly restrictions on firms that less wealthy firms cannot afford to implement
Protectionism, Tariffs and Quotas which give firms insulation from competitive forces
Patent misuse and copyright misuse, such as fraudulently obtaining a patent, copyright, or other form of intellectual property; or using such legal devices to gain advantage in an unrelated market.
Digital rights management which prevents owners from selling used media, as would normally be allowed by the first sale doctrine.
Bundling two or more products together as a package, and selling it for a single price, what Microsoft ran afoul of several times.

Economies of scale create barriers to entry into markets, as such they are anti-competitive in nature. They are not illegal and shouldnt be, however, those corporations who are big enough to have created EoS barriers also tend to enjoy subsidies and regulatory barriers protecting and helping their business as well. To that end, govco is again serving its corporate master.

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West Chester
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Re: GW science is just like sausage making…

Post by West Chester » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:27 pm

Upsetter wrote:
eponymous wrote:The point of my post is that I feel a gouging coming by legislative mandate. When I have a choice to not be gouged or to at least limit the gouging by free market pricipals so be it.
You have no choice either way, and there is no such thing as a free market, has never been one in this country. This is a battle between govt's and huge corporations, we sit on the sidelines and get gouged either way. It is funny to me how corporations are able to have complete control of our govt and our society, and when govt struggles against that control, they are the evil ones.
It started out with this.... no mention of energy situation, just your grievances with business

Upsetter wrote:
West Chester wrote: Does Walmart gouge you? How does Exxon have complete control over our government?
Are you being intentionally obtuse? WTF does walmart have to do with our energy situation? Pay attention. Regarding exxon:

ExxonMobil's denial of global warming started well over a decade ago under former CEO Lee Raymond. In 1990, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the world's foremost authority, came out with its first assessment of global warming and urged governments to cut greenhouse gases by 60 to 80 percent. It was around then that Exxon and Mobil began a multi-million dollar disinformation campaign to confuse the science and block government action. (7)
The IPCC has been promoting bunk science, Exxon just called bullshit years ago, India called bullshit just yesterday.

When CEO Rex Tillerson took over in January 2006 he inherited the policy. Taking a page from the playbook of the tobacco industry, Exxon still spends millions on front groups that deceive the public and create the illusion of a debate about the science of global warming. In 2006, Mr. Tillerson told shareholders that global warming does not pose a financial risk to the company. (8) Despite the scientific consensusConsensus from who... companies who hope to profit from cap and tradetax worldwide that global warming pollution must be dramatically cut, Mr. Tillerson ignores the issue by insisting that "because of their abundance and economic advantages fossil fuels will remain the dominant sources of energy for many decades to come." (9)

ExxonMobil does not participate in any voluntary reporting systems of global warming pollution nor does it set public reduction targets like the other oil giants. The company's contribution to global warming is estimated to be five percent of the world's total. (10) Good for them, its bunk science and by WHOSE ESTIMATE???

ExxonMobil executives are adamantly against U.S. energy independenceIts a bullshit term anyways, we consume more oil a day than our country produces in a day( at current capacity without new wells), we CANT be independent, despite its potentially positive impact on U.S. national security.yeah, if the Persian Gulf is turned into a large scale battle our country and industry will grind to a halt They argue instead for continued dependence on oil producing nations, such as Saudi Arabia where the company has sunk heavy investments. (11) Saudi Arabia holds 22.3 percent of the world's remaining oil reserves. accurate number for a guess.



Although it lobbies against U.S. energy independence, Exxon also lobbies in favor of opening the Arctic Refuge and other sensitive areas to oil drilling. At times, the company argues that opening the Arctic would improve energy independence, which the U.S. Energy Information Administration has countered. Directly after meeting with CEO Rex Tillerson in May 2006, House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-IL) called on Congress to concentrate on prying open the Arctic Refuge. Today, ExxonMobil is the only oil giant still a member of Arctic Power, the single-issue lobby group devoted to opening the Refuge to drilling. BP, Chevron and ConocoPhillips all pulled out under pressure from their shareholders and the public.

See Exxon wants to sell US produced oil but other LOBBYISTS from the green/environment movement wont let them
You tell me, any of these ideas seems like they have any influence on our govt's direction for this country? Yeah, like BHO and the democratic controlled congress listen to what exxon has to say. They spend 6-7 million a year on lobbying, receive 113 billion in subsidies, and are a good part of the reason why we are engaged in two wars in the ME.

Exxon paid the US government 30-32 billion dollars in taxes in 2007 and 2008. Subsidies, 113 billion seems crazy high, do you have a source for that number? I believe the large majority of the subsidies come from tax breaks, also there were a lot of government subsidies offered for ethanol production, although I am not sure how much was given if any to exxon for ethanol production.
I found this info on specific tax subsidies at the federal and state level... no idea the accuracy of the numbers though
http://www.progress.org/2003/energy22.htm
The federal government provides the oil industry with numerous tax breaks designed to ensure that domestic companies can compete with international producers and that gasoline remains cheap for American consumers. Federal tax breaks that directly benefit oil companies include: the Percentage Depletion Allowance (a subsidy of $784 million to $1 billion per year), the Nonconventional Fuel Production Credit ($769 to $900 million), immediate expensing of exploration and development costs ($200 to $255 million), the Enhanced Oil Recovery Credit ($26.3 to $100 million), foreign tax credits ($1.11 to $3.4 billion), foreign income deferrals ($183 to $318 million), and accelerated depreciation allowances ($1.0 to $4.5 billion).

Tax subsidies do not end at the federal level. The fact that most state income taxes are based on oil firms' deflated federal tax bill results in undertaxation of $125 to $323 million per year. Many states also impose fuel taxes that are lower than regular sales taxes, amounting to a subsidy of $4.8 billion per year to gasoline retailers and users. New rules under the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997 are likely to provide the petroleum industry with additional tax subsidies of $2.07 billion per year. In total, annual tax breaks that support gasoline production and use amount to $9.1 to $17.8 billion.
If said posting of nude women includes her holding fish AND a large set of antlers (Non-photoshopped), then it can stay. Otherwise, No nudity on the Drake board. Skimpy? OK. Side-boob? Approved. -nemo

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West Chester
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Re: GW science is just like sausage making…

Post by West Chester » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:33 pm

Upsetter wrote:Anti-competitive practices

copied from an econ book

Also criticized are:

more copies from an econ book

Economies of scale create barriers to entry into markets, as such they are anti-competitive in nature. They are not illegal and shouldnt be, however, those corporations who are big enough to have created EoS barriers also tend to enjoy subsidies and regulatory barriers protecting and helping their business as well. To that end, govco is again serving its corporate master.
yeah, upsetter, I can copy things out of an econ book also. So what is your point? Sounds like you just don't like competition.

Maybe if we model our country after Venezuela you would be happy?
If said posting of nude women includes her holding fish AND a large set of antlers (Non-photoshopped), then it can stay. Otherwise, No nudity on the Drake board. Skimpy? OK. Side-boob? Approved. -nemo

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Re: GW science is just like sausage making…

Post by BigCliff » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:42 pm

West Chester wrote:
Upsetter wrote:There is one scenario that is a guarantee, oil will run out, so will natural gas, and so will coal Yep, never been so sure of anything in my life. I gotta wonder what you are smoking to think that any of those resources are infinitely available.
Are you serious?? You made those outlandish statements No one knows if the oil and natural gas will run dry or if the earth makes it constantly. You say you have never been so sure in your life but how do you know? What scientific facts do YOU have that proves this? I just asked for facts backing up your theory that your portrayed as truth.

I personally don't know if oil/gas wells will dry up tomorrow or they will pump for thousands of years longer. So, therefore, I don't make statements or guarantees about it.
How about this? We're using fossil fuels at about 100x the rate at which they are able to form. (Hell, maybe I'm off and its 30x) With this being the case, how could we not eventually run out?

Lets say the estimators are wrong on both matters and we've got double the avg estimated reserves and time before snow-skiing is impossible in 90% of current locations its currently practiced. Given the rate of increase of global energy consumption, that means that your great-grandkids will be the last to have the option of driving a gasoline car or going skiing, rather than your grandkids. Does that mean we shouldn't be looking into alternatives and solutions?

Here's what I know. My grandad retired as head of Exploration for Exxon, and knew that I found geology quite interesting. He happily discussed it with me for hours on end but I can't recall him ever once suggesting I go into the field. Ground water matters were a different story.
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West Chester
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Re: GW science is just like sausage making…

Post by West Chester » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:50 pm

BigCliff wrote:
How about this? We're using fossil fuels at about 100x the rate at which they are able to form. (Hell, maybe I'm off and its 30x) With this being the case, how could we not eventually run out? Since we are guessing at how fast oil is running out vs IF it is still being or not being produced (all guessed on everyones part) Lets guess if the sun is burning out like all stars do. (guess again) What if the sun is already burned out and the light hasn't gotten to us yet? (another guess) How will our solar panels work with no sun?

Does that mean we shouldn't be looking into alternatives and solutions?

Start looking Cliff, if my car was able to have all the performance characteristics that it has currently using only solar power and batteries and cost the same I will be the first one to buy one. Don't you think if it was possible then a car company or inventor would sell the technology to consumers? And plugging your car into the wall of your house is not cheaper or cleaner... its just paying your electric bull with the meter spinning ALL night and a powerplant burning somewhere else.

Here's what I know. My grandad retired as head of Exploration for ExxonReally cool, and knew that I found geology quite interestingIt is. He happily discussed it with me for hours on end but I can't recall him ever once suggesting I go into the fieldI see. Ground water matters were a different story.And did you go into groundwaters?
If said posting of nude women includes her holding fish AND a large set of antlers (Non-photoshopped), then it can stay. Otherwise, No nudity on the Drake board. Skimpy? OK. Side-boob? Approved. -nemo

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Upsetter
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Re: GW science is just like sausage making…

Post by Upsetter » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:28 pm

West Chester wrote:Are you serious?? You made those outlandish statements No one knows if the oil and natural gas will run dry or if the earth makes it constantly. You say you have never been so sure in your life but how do you know? What scientific facts do YOU have that proves this? I just asked for facts backing up your theory that your portrayed as truth.

I personally don't know if oil/gas wells will dry up tomorrow or they will pump for thousands of years longer. So, therefore, I don't make statements or guarantees about it.
Bwaaahahaha, you dont huh?? Could it be that is because you refuse to hear what you dont want to hear?? Or are you easily convinced by wingnut bloggers and tv pundits who tell you what you want to hear?? Seems common around this board.

Every oil expert worth his salt knows the reality of oil's temporal existence. The entire industry knows this and has known it for a long time, the hubbert curve has been around since the 70's, and the only dispute is whether peak oil has already happened or will happen in the next 10-20 years. You want evidence, here it is from the horse's mouth:

http://energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/g ... pdated.pdf

or a redux if necessary...

http://seekingalpha.com/article/154901- ... or-dummies

But, will you even open the links, much less read them? Seems a much more pertinent question to debates on this board than whether or not I can support my statements. :coffee

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Upsetter
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Re: GW science is just like sausage making…

Post by Upsetter » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:36 pm

West Chester wrote:It started out with this.... no mention of energy situation, just your grievances with business
Isnt this thread about GWing and energy? If you are going to pick apart my posts in the way you are, which is fine, please read them in context of the debate to minimize unproductive tangents.
West Chester wrote:yeah, upsetter, I can copy things out of an econ book also. So what is your point? Sounds like you just don't like anti-competitive practices.

Maybe if we model our country after Venezuela you would be happy?
Youre right, I dont, and I especially dont like it when we give those same corporations unfettered access to influence our govt to increase their anti-competitive advantages. We dont need to model ourselves after any other country, we have perfected the corporatist model all on our own. Lemme guess, you didnt bother reading the libertarian's article about corporatism, did you?

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