some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

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m.b.
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some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by m.b. » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:18 pm

to keep this country safe.


and you libs want to compare that with what other governments do and call it torture...


a much more humane and effective way to obtain critical intelligence quickly without brutalizing the prisoner. sure beats electrocution, ripping off finger nails, acid showers, whippings/beatings, cutting off limbs, removing eyes & tongues, drilling out teeth, dislocating shoulders, burning and other methods often used by our enemies.
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by BigCliff » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:34 am

So now as long as don't do all the torture methods our enemies do, we're cool?

And despite the fact that we prosecuted japanese soldiers for torture after waterboarding our troops during WWII, and OUR OWN soldiers for doing so during Vietnam, its not torture? http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/ ... 1363.shtml

This guy has a bit more credibility on the subject than you bud-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvjn5cKQHQg[/youtube]
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m.b.
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by m.b. » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:36 am

who the fuck is alfonso serrano?

when you fight an unconventional enemy that doesn't adhere to geneva convention, you use unconventional methods to win. most people understand that, libs are the only ones that can't grasp it.

how many lives were saved because we poured some water in some guys' nose?
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by BigCliff » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:46 am

m.b. wrote:who the fuck is alfonso serrano?

when you fight an unconventional enemy that doesn't adhere to geneva convention, you use unconventional methods to win. most people understand that, libs are the only ones that can't grasp it.

how many lives were saved because we poured some water in some guys' nose?
But those with concern about this country continuing to act under its laws and lead the world by example think its more important to abide by those laws than to fight as dirty as our enemies.

Here's the other thing: torture doesn't work-
Writing under the pseudonym of Matthew Alexander, a former special intelligence operations officer, who in 1996 led an interrogations team in Iraq, has written a compelling book where he details his direct experience with torture practices. He conducted more than 300 interrogations and supervised more than a thousand and was awarded a Bronze Star for his achievements in Iraq. Alexander's nonviolent interrogation methods led Special Forces to Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, the head of Al-Qaeda in Iraq. His new book is titled "How to Break a Terrorist: The US Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality, to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq."

"It's extremely ineffective, and it's counterproductive to what we're trying to accomplish," he told reporters. "When we torture somebody, it hardens their resolve," Alexander explained. "The information that you get is unreliable ... And even if you do get reliable information, you're able to stop a terrorist attack, Al-Qaeda's then going to use the fact that we torture people to recruit new members." Alexander says torture techniques used in Iraq consistently failed to produce actionable intelligence and that methods outlined in the US Army Field Manual, which rest on confidence building, consistently worked and gave the interrogators access to critical information. http://www.military.com/news/article/ex ... -work.html
"By any means necessary" ain't big with Americans. Ask this guy-
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by m.b. » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:54 am

BigCliff wrote:But those with concern about this country continuing to act under its laws and lead the world by example think its more important to abide by those laws than to fight as dirty as our enemies. when it comes to saving the lives of innocent American citizens i have no concern about continuing to act under old laws and lead the world as an example. these are new times and a new enemy. remember that convenient little mantra "change?" things change... and our current government has made us one of the worst examples in the world of how to operate.

Here's the other thing: torture doesn't work- that's funny, the guys in alfonso's (who the fuck is that?) little video admitted that the technique was very effective. if you're gonna make claims, make sure they are accurate and consistent.
and the US has hardly acted "by any means necessary." that a cute little attempt to make this whole thing a bigger deal than it is.


where is ditchdoc? i bet he'll be along any minute crying that it's wrong to poor water in enemy combatant's noses to save American lives....
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by slavetotheflyrod » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:35 am

m.b. wrote:to keep this country safe.


and you libs want to compare that with what other governments do and call it torture...


a much more humane and effective way to obtain critical intelligence quickly without brutalizing the prisoner. sure beats electrocution, ripping off finger nails, acid showers, whippings/beatings, cutting off limbs, removing eyes & tongues, drilling out teeth, dislocating shoulders, burning and other methods often used by our enemies.
If it's so easy, let me do it to you. We can have a waterboarding bake, I'll gladly employ that technique and other "approved" techniques, and afterward we can discuss how not-torturous the whole process was.

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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by befuddled » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:40 am

I'm not big on the whole water-panic thing, but I'd LOVE to taze somebody...
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by m.b. » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:47 am

slavetotheflyrod wrote:
m.b. wrote:to keep this country safe.


and you libs want to compare that with what other governments do and call it torture...


a much more humane and effective way to obtain critical intelligence quickly without brutalizing the prisoner. sure beats electrocution, ripping off finger nails, acid showers, whippings/beatings, cutting off limbs, removing eyes & tongues, drilling out teeth, dislocating shoulders, burning and other methods often used by our enemies.
If it's so easy, let me do it to you. We can have a waterboarding bake, I'll gladly employ that technique and other "approved" techniques, and afterward we can discuss how not-torturous the whole process was.

This might be our moment to bond over.
ok, come on down.
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by SLSS » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:58 am

We're gonna have to disagree here, MB. I think I completely understand the compulsion towards it, but I don't really believe in its effectiveness- I'm sure you'll get lots of information, just not sure of the validity. Everything I've read seems to point towards those with actual experience believing in the lower key methods.

I also have misgivings about all the people involved in moving us towards this standard of behavior, never having been on the front lines of anything. It feels to me like everyone else is considered an expendable pawn, while they've moved back and forth between politics and private sector, getting wealthier and more powerful. I think the moral line has been crossed a long way back.
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by slavetotheflyrod » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:20 am

m.b. wrote:
slavetotheflyrod wrote:
m.b. wrote:to keep this country safe.


and you libs want to compare that with what other governments do and call it torture...


a much more humane and effective way to obtain critical intelligence quickly without brutalizing the prisoner. sure beats electrocution, ripping off finger nails, acid showers, whippings/beatings, cutting off limbs, removing eyes & tongues, drilling out teeth, dislocating shoulders, burning and other methods often used by our enemies.
If it's so easy, let me do it to you. We can have a waterboarding bake, I'll gladly employ that technique and other "approved" techniques, and afterward we can discuss how not-torturous the whole process was.

This might be our moment to bond over.
ok, come on down.
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by West Chester » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:19 am

Here is a reporter getting waterboarded. 5 minute clip

http://link.brightcove.com/services/pla ... 0047560001
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by befuddled » Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:07 pm

really, thats your waterboarding example? a five second clip? try again. There are much better ones.

Do you think we offered metal objects to drop to the people we tortured?
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