some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

[gadflyfisher]

You didn't sign the G C either.
You aren't wearing a military uni are you?
So if they snatch you. Don't give you a trial. Say you are a terroist and start sawing your head off its all good with you, right?
That is bullshit!
We follow certain rules so we can always control the moral highground and nobody can use our actions to justify their use of butchery against out brave armed forces. We should never do anything that can put them at greater risk than they have to be.
We should also track down and punish (hopefully they would be killed in a military operation) them for their atrocities.

[BigCliff]

if you want to discuss unconstitutionality and unAmericanness, let's discuss some of the shit the Obama administration has been doing. where in the constitution does it say that the government should be in the healthcare business on taxpayers' dime? See "Medicare" and "Medicaid", decades of existence makes me think constitutionality likely isn't an issue.

where are czars established in the constitution? They're not, but they've been in every administration for the last 50 years, including Reagan and both Bushes. W in fact had 35, but you apparently didn't think it was a problem until Glenn Beck told you to.

where does nationalizing banks, You mean like during the S&L Crisis during the Reagan administration?auto industry, etc. appear in the constitution? where does bailing out failing entities appear in the constitution? Its not, but you didn't bitch until the Dem presided over them. how "american" is socialism? I'm sure Joseph McCarthy appreciates having another fan, but haven't you worn that out already?

[MTgrayling]

"who we are" changed on 9/11.

Nope. I'm still an American with American values.

Dumbfuck.

[m.b.]

if you want to discuss unconstitutionality and unAmericanness, let's discuss some of the shit the Obama administration has been doing. where in the constitution does it say that the government should be in the healthcare business on taxpayers' dime? See "Medicare" and "Medicaid", decades of existence makes me think constitutionality likely isn't an issue. then what was your point?

where are czars established in the constitution? They're not, but they've been in every administration for the last 50 years, including Reagan and both Bushes. W in fact had 35, but you apparently didn't think it was a problem until Glenn Beck told you to. and? i most certainly thought it was a problem. it's been a concern of mine since before beck existed... you know, back when you were still in school. some of us are actually old enough to have formed our views and opinions before the advent of internet blogs and talking heads on opinion shows gained so much popularity. i realize that's difficult to comprehend for someone who puts so much effort into reading those blogs/listening to talking heads and regurgitating a good deal of it (and with links to it), but that doesn't mean we all do it. it's very inconvenient for those who like to childishly say "that's what so-and-so told you think!" but that's what it is.

where does nationalizing banks, You mean like during the S&L Crisis during the Reagan administration?auto industry, etc. appear in the constitution? where does bailing out failing entities appear in the constitution? Its not, but you didn't bitch until the Dem presided over them. yeah, just like that. i bitched all sorts of noise when bush did it. pay attention. are you now justifying what obama's doing by saying it's ok cuz Bush did it? how "american" is socialism? I'm sure Joseph McCarthy appreciates having another fan, but haven't you worn that out already? that was communism dumby, and no, opposing socialism in the US gov't will never get worn out.

[m.b.]

"who we are" changed on 9/11.

Nope. I'm still an American with American values.

Dumbfuck.

and you believe that who we are didn't change that day? shows who the dumbfuck is.

but why don't you explain to us again how the insurance companies work and what their profitability looks like....post up so more charts illustrating something completely different than what you're attempting to argue, you know, just so we can laugh again.

[m.b.]

You didn't sign the G C either.
You aren't wearing a military uni are you?
So if they snatch you. Don't give you a trial. Say you are a terroist and start sawing your head off its all good with you, right?
That is bullshit!
We follow certain rules so we can always control the moral highground and nobody can use our actions to justify their use of butchery against out brave armed forces. We should never do anything that can put them at greater risk than they have to be.
We should also track down and punish (hopefully they would be killed in a military operation) them for their atrocities.

ah, let the emotion flow...

bring up unlikely hypotheticals and rant and rave and make absurd statements....predictable for a liberal.

[BigCliff]

"who we are" changed on 9/11.

Nope. I'm still an American with American values.

Dumbfuck.

and you believe that who we are didn't change that day?

Correct. I'm not willing to give those deluded whack-jobs that kind of power. Its EXACTLY what they're after.

You have successfully gotten to the absolute core of our differing views on this.

[gadflyfisher]

You didn't sign the G C either.
You aren't wearing a military uni are you?
So if they snatch you. Don't give you a trial. Say you are a terroist and start sawing your head off its all good with you, right?
That is bullshit!
We follow certain rules so we can always control the moral highground and nobody can use our actions to justify their use of butchery against out brave armed forces. We should never do anything that can put them at greater risk than they have to be.
We should also track down and punish (hopefully they would be killed in a military operation) them for their atrocities.

ah, let the emotion flow...

bring up unlikely hypotheticals and rant and rave and make absurd statements....predictable for M B.

Fixxed it for you.

PS- was the part about not putting our troops at higher risk of being tortured if captured due to our actions what you found absurd? Why do you hate our troops?

[MTgrayling]

and you believe that who we are didn't change that day?

I didn't move on 9/11, I still live in America.

I've spent much time thinking over the events of that day, as we all have, and I often wonder what those that perished that day would think of the "Nuke 'em" crowd that surfaced later that afternoon? What they would think of the gross overreaction that came in the days and months afterward? What would they think of the wars, war crimes and war dead that came in the wake of their deaths?

3,000 people died and we can all agree that it was horrific and never should have happened. I know that if I was one of those people who gave their lives for their country on that September day I would be appalled by what occurred, ostensibly, in my name afterwards. Our countries actions after the attack have not honored their memories. We've distorted and used their deaths as excuses to devolve our country, to torture, to imprison indefinitely (remember habeaus corpus?), to have our mail opened and our library phone and computer records given to the government without a warrant or evidence of any wrongdoing whatsoever, to invade nations using false intelligence, and the hardest part to take, to lay American blood on foreign sands.

The saddest part of the events of 9/11 came days and weeks after the towers were rubble. The pure ugliness shown in the following days haunts me more than the images of the towers falling.

9/11 may indeed have changed our nation. My point was that it didn't have to and we never should have let it.

Go fishing MB. Get out, the shack nasties are consuming you.

Edit: I know I have the same mores and values I had before and will have these same values always, they are core values. Core beliefs do not change. What is wrong will forever be wrong no matter the situation. The ends don't justify the means.