some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

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BigCliff
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by BigCliff » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:44 am

West Chester wrote:Hypothetical question for your guys against water boarding. Lets say a loved one was being held captive somewhere and you have standing in front of you a suspect who knows where your loved one is. Would you put your "torture" beliefs aside to find out the information about your loved one or would you give the suspect rights that he is not owed, 5th amendment knowledge and allow him to sit quiet.

I know the answer and so do you. You would do anything possible to rescue your loved one including pouring water in someone's nose. But I also know you will never admit you would "torture" someone because it is not a real suggestion.

Secondly, do you guys realize why these guys are being water boarded? because they were captured on a battlefield, often times surrendering AFTER shooting at our troops. They refused to give information that will help end the war sooner so ultimately they were removed from the combat zone to acquire the information that US Soldiers need to win the war.

Let our soldiers and CIA do the job to get these wars won.
You're wrong. I'm admitting right now that I would do any fucking thing necessary that I could think of to get that information out of them: feed him his ear, hammer-smash all ten toes, you name it.

The difference is, I am not a country with laws. I was not created by and am not governed by a constitution, and I have never agreed to abide by the Geneva Conventions. I have never prosecuted anyone in my courts for doing the things I mentioned above. I am a human with emotions, a temper, adrenaline, and at times, fear. The point of the laws enacted to govern this country is to take those human influences out of the picture.
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by shunned » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:50 am

West Chester wrote:
ditchdoc wrote:So, when are you enlisting?
To waterboard people that were caught fighting our troops.... where do I sign up?
army recruitment headquarters, you fucking numpty. go on then.
let us know when you return.

I just spent the last hour watching people from disc jockeys to reporters getting waterboarded so now I'm an expert.

disclaimer: I really don't give a flying what you seppos get up to.
nice bed.
lie in it.

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the depths of your narcissism never cease to amaze me

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m.b.
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by m.b. » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:14 pm

Mattb wrote:New article on waterboarding and other torture techniques under the Bush administration:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/ ... ws/feature

I'd be irate if another country was doing this to our soldiers. There's just no justification for the US doing crap like that.
yeah, difference is we aren't doing this to another country's soldiers. we're doing it to terrorists. (Cheney 2012!)

Willi wrote:We prosecuted our enemies for the same torture techniques in the past and now since we've used these techniques, they're somehow no longer torture!?? It's one thing to feel and make an argument that torture is justified (which I don't believe) but it's too Orwellian for me to change the meaning of words to fit a specific political position.

Willi
times have changed guys, and they've changed a bunch too. as an example of how much things have changed, back then (when we were prosecuting for this) we'd have never allowed a apologizing socialist with confirmed ties to a tried and convicted terrorist anywhere near the white house. today, he lives in it.

today we face an enemy that is very different from any we've ever faced, and it requires alternative ways of handling those enemies. if they put on uniforms and abided by the geneva convention, then i'd be all for not waterboarding them. but that's not the case.


and where do we enlist to waterboard terrorist to get info that will protect you and your family? that's one of those events (that would change my life that MTtearyeyes was talking about) that i'd welcome.

BigCliff wrote:The difference is, I am not a country with laws. I was not created by and am not governed by a constitution, and I have never agreed to abide by the Geneva Conventions.

yeah, and neither are the terrorist combatants that are being exposed to this... that's a huge difference that's worth noting.


course, then there's the wise comments from the guy who'll freely fling rocks at the country that has protected his very freedom to cast such rocks for the last several decades...what do you even say to that clown?
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by ditchdoc » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:42 pm

today we face an enemy that is very different from any we've ever faced, and it requires alternative ways of handling those enemies. if they put on uniforms and abided by the geneva convention, then i'd be all for not waterboarding them. but that's not the case.

What's this "WE" shit? What enemy have you ever faced?
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by m.b. » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:03 pm

ditchdoc wrote:today we face an enemy that is very different from any we've ever faced, and it requires alternative ways of handling those enemies. if they put on uniforms and abided by the geneva convention, then i'd be all for not waterboarding them. but that's not the case.

What's this "WE" shit? What enemy have you ever faced?
"we" = americans/taxpayers/citizens of the united states of america and the members of the volunteer armed forces that work for us. all americans alive today have faced terrorism. even you.


you're not really so dumb that you didn't know that answer to that question, are you?
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by gadflyfisher » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:12 am

m.b. wrote:
Mattb wrote:New article on waterboarding and other torture techniques under the Bush administration:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/ ... ws/feature

I'd be irate if another country was doing this to our soldiers. There's just no justification for the US doing crap like that.
yeah, difference is we aren't doing this to another country's soldiers. we're doing it to terrorists. (Cheney 2012!)

Willi wrote:We prosecuted our enemies for the same torture techniques in the past and now since we've used these techniques, they're somehow no longer torture!?? It's one thing to feel and make an argument that torture is justified (which I don't believe) but it's too Orwellian for me to change the meaning of words to fit a specific political position.

Willi
times have changed guys, and they've changed a bunch too. as an example of how much things have changed, back then (when we were prosecuting for this) we'd have never allowed a apologizing socialist with confirmed ties to a tried and convicted terrorist anywhere near the white house. today, he lives in it.

today we face an enemy that is very different from any we've ever faced, and it requires alternative ways of handling those enemies. if they put on uniforms and abided by the geneva convention, then i'd be all for not waterboarding them. but that's not the case.


and where do we enlist to waterboard terrorist to get info that will protect you and your family? that's one of those events (that would change my life that MTtearyeyes was talking about) that i'd welcome.

BigCliff wrote:The difference is, I am not a country with laws. I was not created by and am not governed by a constitution, and I have never agreed to abide by the Geneva Conventions.

yeah, and neither are the terrorist combatants that are being exposed to this... that's a huge difference that's worth noting.


course, then there's the wise comments from the guy who'll freely fling rocks at the country that has protected his very freedom to cast such rocks for the last several decades...what do you even say to that clown?
General Petraeus says we broke the Geneva Convention rules.

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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by ditchdoc » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:23 am

you're not really so dumb that you didn't know that answer to that question, are you?


Conveniently obtuse. Figures.
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by BigCliff » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:49 am

m.b. wrote:
BigCliff wrote:The difference is, I am not a country with laws. I was not created by and am not governed by a constitution, and I have never agreed to abide by the Geneva Conventions.

yeah, and neither are the terrorist combatants that are being exposed to this... that's a huge difference that's worth noting.
You still don't get it. This is about maintaining who we are, not about fighting as dirty as they are. We contained and defeated the Soviet threat while abiding by these rules, so surely we can manage the threat created by a few thousand religious wackos. The former represented an existential threat to this Nation, the latter does not.

MLK would not have remained truly himself had he resorted to "any means necessary", and the same goes for us.
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by m.b. » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:10 am

"who we are" changed on 9/11. unfortunately we changed (not for the better) again in november 2008. all you dems should be used to/welcome "change" - it's what you clowns voted for, isn't it?

because i disagree with you doesn't mean i don't get it. it means i disagree with you. you sound like that clown you voted for (you know the way we were fuggin' with fud about insurance?). fortunately i still have that freedom, due in some part to the fact that enemy combatants (all ~3 of them who by the way don't abide by the G.C. - convenient how you all keep missing this point) were waterboarded to get information that has helped sustain that freedom.

this is hardly "fighting as dirty as they are." only a lib (the same type of person that thinks these guys deserve trial by jury in a civilian courtrooms) would compare pouring water in someone's nose (as unpleasant as it is) to the things our current enemy has done. and Bush did a great job "managing the threat of those few thousand wackos." it wasn't until a soft lib got in the white house and ended the war on terror that we started having islamic terrorist attacks on US soil again.
BigCliff wrote:The former represented an existential threat to this Nation, the latter does not.
wow! just, wow! you licked the cool-aid right of his balls didn't you? that says so much right there.




how true did MLK remain to his wife?
BigCliff wrote:the same goes for us.
speak for yourself, nancy. the more i think about it, the more i'm fine with "any means necessary" to keep my family and fellow citizens (even you guys) safe. i realize some of you libs may not be able to grasp such a concept, and i don't really expect you to.
Last edited by m.b. on Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:32 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by m.b. » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:19 am

ditchdoc wrote:Conveniently obtuse. Figures.

conveniently devoid. figures.
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by BigCliff » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:59 am

m.b. wrote: because i disagree with you doesn't mean i don't get it. it means i disagree with you. Yeah alright, fair enough. fortunately i still have that freedom, due in some part to the fact that enemy combatants (all ~3 of them who by the way don't abide by the G.C. - (convenient how you all keep missing this point) were waterboarded to get information that has helped sustain that freedom. To clarify, is the point I'm missing that you're concerned about the fact that we only waterboarded 3 of them, or that they don't go by the GC's? The former seems odd since you're advocating its further use, and I've already addressed the latter.

this is hardly "fighting as dirty as they are." only a lib (the same type of person that thinks these guys deserve trial by jury in a civilian courtrooms) would compare pouring water in someone's nose (as unpleasant as it is) to the things our current enemy has done. I'm not bringing that up because its what we've done (we've not) but because its what you and the rest of the Hannity Apostles advocate. and Bush did a great job "managing the threat of those few thousand wackos." it wasn't until a soft lib got in the white house and ended the war on terror that we started having islamic terrorist attacks on US soil again. Do you honestly think that the Hasan and Abdulmutallab attacks couldn't have happened under Bush? Obama is ultimately more accountable due to their actions happening on his watch, but Hasan did the majority of his wacko hinting while W was in office, and Abdulmutallab was able to take advantage of failures of a system that W had 7+ years to fix.
BigCliff wrote:The former represented an existential threat to this Nation, the latter does not.
wow! just, wow! you licked the cool-aid right of his balls didn't you? that says so much right there. Either you're not clear on what "existential threat" means, or you might want to refresh yourself on the Soviet nuclear arsenal.




how true did MLK remain to his wife? Nice diversion. Probably about the same as our Founding Fathers.
BigCliff wrote:the same goes for us.
speak for yourself, nancy. the more i think about it, the more i'm fine with "any means necessary" to keep my family and fellow citizens (even you guys) safe. i realize some of you libs may not be able to grasp such a concept, and i don't really expect you to. Here's the thing, "any means necessary" is unconstitutional and therefore unAmerican. We can keep ourselves safe while abiding by our laws, and that's what we must do to remain the same nation we are all proud of.
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Re: some of the evil, evil shit the Bush administration did...

Post by m.b. » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:27 am

BigCliff wrote: To clarify, is the point I'm missing that you're concerned about the fact that we only waterboarded 3 of them, or that they don't go by the GC's? The former seems odd since you're advocating its further use, and I've already addressed the latter. i'm not concerned with either. both are simple facts that i stated. the only way i'd advocate further use is in similar scenarios.

I'm not bringing that up because its what we've done (we've not) but because its what you and the rest of the Hannity Apostles advocate. What is a "Hannity Apostle" and what do they advocate? Do you honestly think that the Hasan and Abdulmutallab attacks couldn't have happened under Bush? we'll never know, but under bush it would have been much less likley as he actually acknowledged a war on terror. Obama is ultimately more accountable due to their actions happening on his watch, but Hasan did the majority of his wacko hinting while W was in office, and Abdulmutallab was able to take advantage of failures of a system that W had 7+ years to fix. Napolitano said the system worked. which is it? did it work as the head of homeland secutiry claimed, or did it not work?

Either you're not clear on what "existential threat" means, or you might want to refresh yourself on the Soviet nuclear arsenal.
if a certain muslim community telling you they will stop at nothing to eliminate you from the face of the earth is not an "existential threat," then you're right, i don't know what that means.




how true did MLK remain to his wife? Nice diversion. Probably about the same as our Founding Fathers. how's it a diversion? - you brought it up.
you didn't cite the founding fathers being true to themselves though.



Here's the thing, "any means necessary" is unconstitutional and therefore unAmerican. We can keep ourselves safe while abiding by our laws, and that's what we must do to remain the same nation we are all proud of.
here's the thing," if it means protecting the lives and liberties of my family and fellow citizens (even you) i could care less if it's unconstitutional or "unAmerican." see, without life and liberty, all your cute little ideals, the constitution, and being "American" means nothing. my priorities and loyalties lie with life and liberty. and it's not like we're doing this to people who aren't attacking us.

if you want to discuss unconstitutionality and unAmericanness, let's discuss some of the shit the Obama administration has been doing. where in the constitution does it say that the government should be in the healthcare business on taxpayers' dime? where are czars established in the constitution? where does nationalizing banks, auto industry, etc. appear in the constitution? where does bailing out failing entities appear in the constitution? how "american" is socialism?
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