#562535
By totally different you mean practicing the actions that led us into the biggest recession since the depression?

How was it any different at it's core?

The Dakotas are a bad example (surprise,surprise)...they are booming now cuz of the fraking and everything in those areas is overheated....high rents, shortage of housing, growth based on short term industry, etc. There's nary another state that has put the eggs in one basket and has no other large component of their economy. It's frakin' and taking farm welfare subsidies....and when the frakin runs out, it'll be back to social welfare and farm welfare.

You note the difference being the economy was at 4.4-4.8% to make your point, and then site a current day state that has unemployment darn near the 4.6%+- to make another point. It isn't different....if it's the same.
User avatar
By Jon
#562540
Plow wrote:
Jon wrote:
Plow wrote: Notice the dates, unemployment was running between 4.4 to 4.8. No obamacare and no Obama to worry about. Apples and oranges to today.
The quoted studies ('06 - '07) were done around the last time Congress voted to increase the federal MW. If there have been any more recent ones that refute those findings, put 'em up.
The economy was totally different.
In other words, you got nothing. As usual.
#562577
VTNZ wrote:By totally different you mean practicing the actions that led us into the biggest recession since the depression?
Don't you wish dems has listened to Bush when he warned us about the wacky home loan BS going on? Dems rode that horse and us right into the dirt.
How was it any different at it's core?
You think they are the same????? Surly you've noticed some differences.
The Dakotas are a bad example (surprise,surprise)...they are booming now cuz of the fraking and everything in those areas is overheated....high rents, shortage of housing, growth based on short term industry, etc. There's nary another state that has put the eggs in one basket and has no other large component of their economy. It's frakin' and taking farm welfare subsidies....and when the frakin runs out, it'll be back to social welfare and farm welfare.
Actually I thought Jon might pick it up as a justification on how MW helps the econ.
Dakotas, great econs, show people do really well in them. Our focus should be on making a better econ which raising the MW won't do. The MW discussion is just a distraction from the real issue the econ. Warm and fuzzy trumps real work and solutions every time.

As an aside... Raise MW to 15 and you'll see some quality folks coming out of unemployment to get those jobs, current MW workers will be fucked (students too). We'll need another plan to help them.
You note the difference being the economy was at 4.4-4.8% to make your point, and then site a current day state that has unemployment darn near the 4.6%+- to make another point. It isn't different....if it's the same.
Never said squat about current day unemployment, which is a highly suspected, wind aided 6.7%. I believe we have more folks unemployed today than ever (and for longer). Difference in that.
User avatar
By VTNZ
#562593
I'm not talking about the national rate; I was using the state you chose as an example....N. Dakota. Check their unemployment, and you'll find its much lower than the average. Which in boom/bust economies like energy extraction, causes the MW wage to go up cuz the cost of living literally in towns like Williston goes up weekly.

Thats their wages keeping up with the economy and cost of living increases...their method; and a reflection of another boogey-man of conservative economics: INFLATION

....the national MW is not and has not kept up with any metric of cost of living.
User avatar
By Jon
#562642
Plow wrote:Dakotas, great econs, show people do really well in them. Our focus should be on making a better econ which raising the MW won't do. The MW discussion is just a distraction from the real issue the econ. Warm and fuzzy trumps real work and solutions every time.
I would hardly say ND is a model for the national economy. Boom is inevitably followed by bust.

Outside of the fracking boom (and pending bust) states of ND, SD and NE the lowest unemployment rate is in Vermont. With a MW over 20% higher than the federal minimum - $8.73. If a higher minimum wage destroys jobs, why is liberal little VT thriving? (include VT's high taxes, generous welfare benefits and - gasp - a pending single-payer health system they've hit the Fox Noise talking points superfecta)
#562688
Fast forward to around minute 52:00. She nails a large part of the issue with student loans. Our higher education system should not be set up to make a profit off of the backs of our hard working citizens. She goes on to talk about Sallie Mae and how they have broken many rules, but they don't care because even after fines, they are still raking it in.

http://www.help.senate.gov/hearings/hea ... 1396baca15
#562698
I was thinking of bringing that up yesterday Jon... :cool

And then the state came out and said the rate is now down further to 3.7%.

Vermont is a place where folks go if they care about their quality of life and put that a bit above short term exploiting of resources, human or otherwise. It's that simple.

That, and as a result of generations of like minded folks doing this, the state is also one of the highest educated.

In the end, thats Vermonts only trump card....let the rest of the US become more and of a pain in the ass and "Come visit the Green Mountains and relax...or ski, or drink and eat good local shit, boat, hike the LT,etc.
Vermont has no shipping ports, no energy under the ground, so big corps aren't real interested. We have decent trade with Canukistan as its on the border. Interestingly, there has been a fair bit of investment by some of those Canadians into Vermont, and they like it there. Otherwise, you pay a good wage to a generally educated sort, make an premium high end product or service, market wisely (see Ben and Jerry), and voila....another award winning micro-brew is born and the folks from Boston and NYC are sucking this shit down on the weekends. To a degree, Maine and NH work the same angle, but their economies are different in that they have the coast and its associated bidnesses like boat yards, commercial fishing,etc. Vermont doesn't even have that. Oh yea...VT has lots of colleges which employ folks.



Speaking of Boston and NYC, at 3-3.5 hrs and 5-6 hrs away respectively, we also can't compete too well in other urban sectors of the economy, like say, putting a bank headquarters there. No pro sports teams,etc. But they're close enough to be a great tourist base, and they buy lots of 2nd homes, cuz when you create a place where folks enjoy life, you invest there...as a result, VT had the lowest foreclosure rate in the US during the recession. One county in southern VT has more non-residents on the property tax roles than residents.

Not a state to get rich quick though, the same UVM grad will start out at one job in Burlington at 55k; the same job in Boston will pay 75k, and the same one in NYC will get them 90k; but you're living in pricy, pain in the ass giant cities. But if you're creative, care about quality, and have the nads to go for it, folks will buy premium goods/services that cost more if they feel good about the company,etc. Proof? Look upstairs at PA's experiance with Orvis in handling the photo theft shit. Orvis fronted, and clearly PA is a happy man.

Now if the snow runs out and it's too warm to make snow in the winter...then we'd be shitting bricks. 20+ ski areas...
User avatar
By Plow
#562747
Jon wrote:
Plow wrote:Dakotas, great econs, show people do really well in them. Our focus should be on making a better econ which raising the MW won't do. The MW discussion is just a distraction from the real issue the econ. Warm and fuzzy trumps real work and solutions every time.
I would hardly say ND is a model for the national economy. Boom is inevitably followed by bust.

Outside of the fracking boom (and pending bust) states of ND, SD and NE the lowest unemployment rate is in Vermont. With a MW over 20% higher than the federal minimum - $8.73. If a higher minimum wage destroys jobs, why is liberal little VT thriving? (include VT's high taxes, generous welfare benefits and - gasp - a pending single-payer health system they've hit the Fox Noise talking points superfecta)
Did a quick google on VT unemployment and found this: Vt.'s unemployment rate the envy of country
Only Nebraska and the Dakotas have unemployment rates less than Vermont’s. Nebraska is benefiting from high food prices and the Dakotas from that and the booming oil and natural gas sectors, thanks to vertical drilling and hydraulic fracturing.

Neither of these are the source of Vermont’s low unemployment rate. Our economy is diversified and balanced so we don’t have any one industry or sector that is the source of our low unemployment.

Rather, our low unemployment rate is more of a reflection of the supply side of the labor market rather than the underlying demand for labor. It reflects our stagnant population and declining working age population, not stellar economic conditions.
So Vermont is in a unique situation and doesn't reflect the rest of the country.

Raise the cost of labor and some folks will loose jobs. Raise the cost of beef and folks will eat less beef. Fact of life. Y'all really should be worrying about getting the economy going again.
#562802
Personal debt is killing the economy.




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