Cliven Bundy

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MTgrayling
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Re: Cliven Bundy

Post by MTgrayling » Mon May 12, 2014 9:35 pm

This stuff angers and confuses me.

There ain't a lot left I'd fight for, but American's public land and our access is sure as hell one of things I won't give up.
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Re: Cliven Bundy

Post by slavetotheflyrod » Mon May 12, 2014 9:54 pm

So now in addition to defending one mans right to over graze federal land without paying we're taking up arms to defend the right to drive anywhere we damn well please in our ATV's?

I can't wait to see how trivial a cause these mindless fuckwits finally die for.
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Re: Cliven Bundy

Post by LTD » Tue May 13, 2014 6:39 am

slavetotheflyrod wrote:So now in addition to defending one mans right to over graze federal land without paying we're taking up arms to defend the right to drive anywhere we damn well please in our ATV's?

I can't wait to see how trivial a cause these mindless fuckwits finally die for.
some people choose to fight for the very same access to hunt the BLM grid, others to fish, and some to ride their ATVs. Granted, one does a lot more damage than the others.....but when you get to the heart of the matter it's all about access. I personally know some great hunting areas in Wyoming in the BLM grid that I cannot access due to the fact that the GOV...(the very same gov that operates the BLM) outlaws corner jumping in order to access landlocked public land.

I am sure many of you would be taking up the fight if you were trying to fish under the same situation. Cary and others have been fighting stream access using the high water demarcations. Unfortunately.....we don't have a high water demarcation situation, but the bottom line remains the same. Access.
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Re: Cliven Bundy

Post by gadflyfisher » Tue May 13, 2014 6:59 am

When they start aiming scoped weapons at gov authorities from hiding places you can call me out personally as a hypocrite if I don't call them assholes.

But then this will never happen.
Doing everything you can do thru the legal system and threatening law enforcement are not the same thing, if you didn't know that before.

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Re: Cliven Bundy

Post by MTgrayling » Tue May 13, 2014 10:29 am

The access issue is bullshit. We all have access now, except ranchers get more like the ability to drive in roadless areas.


We cannot let the states take this land and access. Once it's gone it ain't ever coming back.

Having lived all over the west in areas thick and rich in public lands, I have yet to see any county or state agency I would entrust with these national treasures, natural resources, vast viewscapes and wildlife at all, ever, even for a single day.

"Lets liquidate our public lands heritage"

I say, FUCK NO! :gun
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Re: Cliven Bundy

Post by Upsetter » Tue May 13, 2014 11:48 am

LTD wrote: I personally know some great hunting areas in Wyoming in the BLM grid that I cannot access due to the fact that the GOV...(the very same gov that operates the BLM) outlaws corner jumping in order to access landlocked public land.
I can say for sure that govco doesnt give a shit about corner jumping. Its the private landowners and their shithouse outfitters that lease their land who are vigorously enforcing corner jumping as trespass. This has been a bitterly fought battle up here with bills introduced at the state level to expressly allow corner jumping on state trust lands. Private landowners and outfitters shot it down, not the agencies. Theyre just stuck enforcing the law as its written.
gadflyfisher wrote:Doing everything you can do thru the legal system and threatening law enforcement are not the same thing, if you didn't know that before.
LEO's sure dont have any problem pointing weapons and threatening taxpayers who pay their salary. Which is more fucked up? JBT's or those who resist them? Try flipping the script a bit and think how you would feel if the boot heel was coming down on your neck, whatever the reason. That is why I see this as a bigger issue than the stupid one bundy brought to a head. The trend towards overwhelming uses of force by all levels of LE is real...and its scary.

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Re: Cliven Bundy

Post by LTD » Tue May 13, 2014 11:51 am

gadflyfisher wrote:When they start aiming scoped weapons at gov authorities from hiding places you can call me out personally as a hypocrite if I don't call them assholes.

But then this will never happen.
Doing everything you can do thru the legal system and threatening law enforcement are not the same thing, if you didn't know that before.
gad......I agree with you that the legal system needs to be utilized to the fullest. That said....until pointing a rifle/gun at a government employee (without the intent to rob or otherwise take something from that person)....or anyone for that matter is against the law, your objection to that action has no weight/merit in this argument. Dog help us if and when we start creating such laws......
"At some point reasonable people have to accept certain changes our presence has brought about, learn to not make similar mistakes in the future and appreciate and enjoy what we have while lamenting what we've lost"~~~~~ Muddled Duck

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Re: Cliven Bundy

Post by LTD » Tue May 13, 2014 12:01 pm

Upsetter wrote:
LTD wrote: I personally know some great hunting areas in Wyoming in the BLM grid that I cannot access due to the fact that the GOV...(the very same gov that operates the BLM) outlaws corner jumping in order to access landlocked public land.
I can say for sure that govco doesnt give a shit about corner jumping. Its the private landowners and their shithouse outfitters that lease their land who are vigorously enforcing corner jumping as trespass. This has been a bitterly fought battle up here with bills introduced at the state level to expressly allow corner jumping on state trust lands. Private landowners and outfitters shot it down, not the agencies. Theyre just stuck enforcing the law as its written.
gadflyfisher wrote:Doing everything you can do thru the legal system and threatening law enforcement are not the same thing, if you didn't know that before.
LEO's sure dont have any problem pointing weapons and threatening taxpayers who pay their salary. Which is more fucked up? JBT's or those who resist them? Try flipping the script a bit and think how you would feel if the boot heel was coming down on your neck, whatever the reason. That is why I see this as a bigger issue than the stupid one bundy brought to a head. The trend towards overwhelming uses of force by all levels of LE is real...and its scary.
up......as an outfitter I can tell you I wasn't on the side of the other outfitters and private landowners. If the gov/BLM really wanted the public to have access to the landlocked land they would provide the very same enforcement and protection they are using in the Bundy type cases. Fact is....they don't give a shit if you and I have access to that land. If it isn't in their best interests to provide the necessary action it's simply not gonna happen. There are huge tracts of public land that the public cannot access. I see a lot of selective outrage here....( not from you up)
"At some point reasonable people have to accept certain changes our presence has brought about, learn to not make similar mistakes in the future and appreciate and enjoy what we have while lamenting what we've lost"~~~~~ Muddled Duck

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Re: Cliven Bundy

Post by Upsetter » Tue May 13, 2014 1:01 pm

LTD wrote:up......as an outfitter I can tell you I wasn't on the side of the other outfitters and private landowners.
Good. Ive always thought it a sleazy way to make a living as an outfitter. Cordoning off the public by gating roads, blocking corner jumping, etc. And those fuckers almost always show up with guns at the ready.
LTD wrote:Fact is....they don't give a shit if you and I have access to that land.
This I can agree with. :cool
LTD wrote:If the gov/BLM really wanted the public to have access to the landlocked land they would provide the very same enforcement and protection they are using in the Bundy type cases.
The main reason I could give two shits about the Bundy situation per se, is Bundy is in the wrong. As the law is written, and its one of the more benign laws imo, Bundy has boxed himself into a corner after having been given lots of opportunities to resolve the situation. Bad facts. Doesnt justify the overwhelming use of force by the JBTs, but Bundy is not a sympathetic individual in teh least.

Same deal with corner hopping. The law ties the hands of the agencies...all they can do is protect the interests of the landowners, cause thats the law. Change the law and Im sure you would see BLM siding with the public's rights. That is what we are trying to do up here.

I dont know of a single govt agency boots on the ground type employee living around these parts who personally sides with the landowners on that issue, but they all will tell you they have to enforce the law, especially when they have a hot under the collar rich dude leaning on them to press charges.

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Re: Cliven Bundy

Post by slavetotheflyrod » Tue May 13, 2014 1:26 pm

LTD wrote:
gadflyfisher wrote:When they start aiming scoped weapons at gov authorities from hiding places you can call me out personally as a hypocrite if I don't call them assholes.

But then this will never happen.
Doing everything you can do thru the legal system and threatening law enforcement are not the same thing, if you didn't know that before.
gad......I agree with you that the legal system needs to be utilized to the fullest. That said....until pointing a rifle/gun at a government employee (without the intent to rob or otherwise take something from that person)....or anyone for that matter is against the law, your objection to that action has no weight/merit in this argument. Dog help us if and when we start creating such laws......
Just a quick legal heads up brother - it is very much against the law to point a fire arm at someone in pretty much any situation but self defense. At the very least that warrants a menacing charge, which is a felony most places.

First thing they teach you in concealed carry class - you never point the weapon till it's time to use it.

Back on topic: I agree with Upsetter and others about the increasing militarization of our domestic police agencies. I read an article the other day about how the DOJ is giving out surplus MRAP's to little podunk towns and counties for their SWAT teams. We are headed towards a police state for sure. The only way to put a stop to this is to end the war on drugs, and repeal a whole host of laws such as civil forefiture. The lucrative drug war is what funds all these neat toys for the cops who feel like it's their job to then go out and use those toys weather or not they're needed. The drug war and it's proceeds are also the root cause of a large percentage of official corruption. This is a problem, and a growing one, but Bundy isn't the guy to rally behind for this particular cause, nor are these fat fuck ATV shitheads whom I so fucking completely loathe.

If you want to put a stop to the Rambo bullshit in our cities and towns, get behind the cause of one of the thousands of innocent people killed in no-knock SWAT raids. If you're gonna go in full frontal assault, at least get the fucking address right, assholes.
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Re: Cliven Bundy

Post by LTD » Tue May 13, 2014 2:13 pm

slavetotheflyrod wrote:
LTD wrote:
gadflyfisher wrote:When they start aiming scoped weapons at gov authorities from hiding places you can call me out personally as a hypocrite if I don't call them assholes.

But then this will never happen.
Doing everything you can do thru the legal system and threatening law enforcement are not the same thing, if you didn't know that before.
gad......I agree with you that the legal system needs to be utilized to the fullest. That said....until pointing a rifle/gun at a government employee (without the intent to rob or otherwise take something from that person)....or anyone for that matter is against the law, your objection to that action has no weight/merit in this argument. Dog help us if and when we start creating such laws......
Just a quick legal heads up brother - it is very much against the law to point a fire arm at someone in pretty much any situation but self defense. At the very least that warrants a menacing charge, which is a felony most places.

First thing they teach you in concealed carry class - you never point the weapon till it's time to use it.

Back on topic: I agree with Upsetter and others about the increasing militarization of our domestic police agencies. I read an article the other day about how the DOJ is giving out surplus MRAP's to little podunk towns and counties for their SWAT teams. We are headed towards a police state for sure. The only way to put a stop to this is to end the war on drugs, and repeal a whole host of laws such as civil forefiture. The lucrative drug war is what funds all these neat toys for the cops who feel like it's their job to then go out and use those toys weather or not they're needed. The drug war and it's proceeds are also the root cause of a large percentage of official corruption. This is a problem, and a growing one, but Bundy isn't the guy to rally behind for this particular cause, nor are these fat fuck ATV shitheads whom I so fucking completely loathe.

If you want to put a stop to the Rambo bullshit in our cities and towns, get behind the cause of one of the thousands of innocent people killed in no-knock SWAT raids. If you're gonna go in full frontal assault, at least get the fucking address right, assholes.
slave......I have yet to find the law that specifically says " pointing a gun at someone is a felony" . Now....doing so in the process of robbing or threating someone verbally, or physically confronting someone is an entirely different deal. If you can find the specific law that I have not yet been able to find, post it. I am eager to read it. There very well might be one. Guys like you and Up are pretty much on top of the gun issues in the US. Maybe someone else here can provide the information.

I think all responsible gun owners weather you have a concealed carry or not know you don't point a gun at someone until it's time to use it. It's good to live by that law....like many others not everyone does.

I fully agree with your position on the so called..."war on drugs".
"At some point reasonable people have to accept certain changes our presence has brought about, learn to not make similar mistakes in the future and appreciate and enjoy what we have while lamenting what we've lost"~~~~~ Muddled Duck

http://www.keywesttarponguides.com

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Re: Cliven Bundy

Post by Upsetter » Tue May 13, 2014 2:28 pm

slavetotheflyrod wrote:The only way to put a stop to this is to end the war on drugs, and repeal a whole host of laws such as civil forefiture. The lucrative drug war is what funds all these neat toys for the cops who feel like it's their job to then go out and use those toys weather or not they're needed. The drug war and it's proceeds are also the root cause of a large percentage of official corruption.
x2! I just get excited anytime I see folks standing up to that bullshit. We all would be cheering if the fact set was....
slavetotheflyrod wrote:....one of the thousands of innocent people killed in no-knock SWAT raids.
Instead, were divided cause the fact set is Bundy and dipshit atv'ers. Im to the point where I could almost care less who it is who stands up, just so long as folks start to. The only way we are going to change the law is to shock the vested interests in DC and our state capitols into capitulating. They will not give up control easily. Just look at the fight against unconstitutional gun laws in your own state. Even after seeing their cohorts get recalled, the control freaks persist. :coffee

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