[Upsetter]

Is it okay for a person to say no to baking a cake with some sort of lewd depiction or caricature on it? For most, I would think making an innocuous wedding cake that happens to be for a gay couple wouldnt be an issue. My guess is demands were made for some depiction that offended the baker's sensibilities. In that case, why is it different if its two guys kissing or a pair of tits? Both are legal, constitutionally protected even. Either way, the baker is offended, perhaps on religious grounds in both cases. Would you force the baker to make a cake with a naked chick on it for a bachelor party if he said that offended him? Why would it be different if its two guys kissing for a wedding?

[Muddled Duck]

Unsetter,
I love tits, but you're on the money. If you're ever around Memphis, TN, let me know. We'll fish, hunt or drink depending on local conditions. You also have a place to sleep. I don't know if you are gay, straight, black or white, but I honestly don't care as I have good friends of all of the above. Despite our disagreements at times, I would enjoy your company.

[Da Ax]

So we don't serve Hells Angels, Bloods, Crips etc etc ...what is the definition of violent groups ? This is the slippery slope that extremists will drag one down.

I think that it's reasonable to not serve a person based on the fact that they are in a hate group (and all that you mentioned are in that category). It's not that complicated; Blacks are allowed at the lunch counter, so are gays. Hate groups can be refused service. Logic and reason still work. This isn't complicated.

To me, the definition of Hate needs to be made. Seems to me that our society has worked it's way into "if I don't like something about you, it must be hate. If I like/love you, it must be that I love everything about you." That's BS.

Beyond that, how would one KNOW if a Klansman sat down at a counter sans robe/burning cross/etc? He's a member of a "hate" group but would he be refused service because of it if you could not tell? I don't really support any of those organizations...basically I'm indifferent <<<<see that, I treat/think of the "hate" groups the same way I treat everyone else.

[kish]

Don't know if I'm allowed in the basement, but what the hell. It seems pretty simple to me.

A "Devout Christian" caterer should not be forced by law to cater a gay wedding any more than a gay caterer should be forced to cater a reception in the basement of the Westboro Baptist Church. ( Or whatever the name of that nasty bigoted anti gay church is.)

Unless you argue in favor of the latter, you're full of shit to argue the former.

Or how about forcing a Black caterer to serve a KKK rally? Not quite as analogous, but not too far off.

Except for the fact that these (Westboro and KKK) are considered hate groups. Your argument is asinine.

Asinine? Really? It's pretty damn solid, actually. So who decides what a "hate group" is? And for that matter, why should I not be allowed to hate? I think freedom of thought should be a little more untouchable than even freedom of speech. As long as you don't hurt me or take my stuff, hate away.

[Wholetmygoatsout]

[/quote]

Beyond that, how would one KNOW if a Klansman sat down at a counter sans robe/burning cross/etc? He's a member of a "hate" group but would he be refused service because of it if you could not tell? I don't really support any of those organizations...basically I'm indifferent <<<<see that, I treat/think of the "hate" groups the same way I treat everyone else.[/quote]

We could always tattoo a number on the forearm of those convicted along with a barcode so we can scan to see exactly what they hate and decide if we wish to serve them or not ...then again I think something like that was tried about 75 years ago in Europe.

[cantfishforshit.]

Don't know if I'm allowed in the basement, but what the hell. It seems pretty simple to me.

A "Devout Christian" caterer should not be forced by law to cater a gay wedding any more than a gay caterer should be forced to cater a reception in the basement of the Westboro Baptist Church. ( Or whatever the name of that nasty bigoted anti gay church is.)

Unless you argue in favor of the latter, you're full of shit to argue the former.

Or how about forcing a Black caterer to serve a KKK rally? Not quite as analogous, but not too far off.

Except for the fact that these (Westboro and KKK) are considered hate groups. Your argument is asinine.

Asinine? Really? It's pretty damn solid, actually. So who decides what a "hate group" is? And for that matter, why should I not be allowed to hate? I think freedom of thought should be a little more untouchable than even freedom of speech. As long as you don't hurt me or take my stuff, hate away.

Threatening people IS hurting them. When you form a group that wants to hurt others for racial, spiritual, etc reasons...you have formed a hate group. Yes, asinine. Not solid at all. Eighth grade logic at best.

[cantfishforshit.]

So we don't serve Hells Angels, Bloods, Crips etc etc ...what is the definition of violent groups ? This is the slippery slope that extremists will drag one down.

I think that it's reasonable to not serve a person based on the fact that they are in a hate group (and all that you mentioned are in that category). It's not that complicated; Blacks are allowed at the lunch counter, so are gays. Hate groups can be refused service. Logic and reason still work. This isn't complicated.

To me, the definition of Hate needs to be made. Seems to me that our society has worked it's way into "if I don't like something about you, it must be hate. If I like/love you, it must be that I love everything about you." That's BS.

Beyond that, how would one KNOW if a Klansman sat down at a counter sans robe/burning cross/etc? He's a member of a "hate" group but would he be refused service because of it if you could not tell? I don't really support any of those organizations...basically I'm indifferent <<<<see that, I treat/think of the "hate" groups the same way I treat everyone else.

Come on...You guys are really good at playing dumb. If you form a group that wants to harm another person based on race, religion, sex, national origin, etc (basically for any reason other than self defense), you have formed a hate group and you know exactly what a hate group is...don't even try it. No, we don't treat hate groups the same way. If you form a hate group or join one, that is your right. It's my right to refuse service to someone that would do harm to me, my friends or neighbors. Gays, blacks, other minorities aren't trying to harm me, my friends or my neighbors (as a group, yes there are some individuals from all groups, including whites, that are, but we all know that occurs on an individual basis in all groups. Gays and blacks aren't out there trying to kill me...Ok, maybe the black panthers but we can refuse to serve them too as they have lost that right by forming a hate group). You want to harm or kill for a reason other than self defense, you don't get to force someone to serve you food at the lunch counter. You get told to get the hell out.

[austrotard]

somebody needs to put the dfuckingwayne bait back in the broom cupboard.

[Wholetmygoatsout]

Why not complete the circle - if we hate the haters we become the haters.

[cantfishforshit.]

Why not complete the circle - if we hate the haters we become the haters.

Yeah...let's just help them kill, rape and subjugate us...makes sense.

[Da Ax]

CFFS, you didn't answer my question: how do you know, sans the normal outward costume that is associated with a particular hate group, who is in what hate group? If I despise a group, for whatever reason, but do nothing to them or against them, that is not necessarily hate. It's indifference. In most circles, that's still wrong because the counter-argument is that I should do something for my fellow man. I will do so when I deem it necessary and not before.

I'm not playing dumb, I just choose my position and want to hear someone else's. I just post these things just to understand your position, not to poke the bear. I know exactly where I stand on most issues, sometimes that stance changes, but I decide when it does. It seems that every time a situation arises to this, people who go ape shit crazy because everyone believes that their voice matters...and it does, but not to me. I read these because I get a kick out of watching people go ape* over something.

* Using "ape" figuratively, not literally or in the context of racism. God forbid that something written on the web or a board taken out of context. We don't want that.

[cantfishforshit.]

Even despising a group does damage. It spreads hate and fear, which causes the hated group harm, even if you never touch them. Everyone has the right to self preservation. I may not know you are in a hate group, but if I find out, I sure as hell have the right to self preservation, which includes not having you around me or my business. Now, if you're gay, black, canadian, etc, I don't have the right to refuse you service just because I don't like you, or because my religion discriminates against you.