PSA: Religious LIberties

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cantfishforshit.
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Re: PSA: Religious LIberties

Post by cantfishforshit. » Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:33 pm

austrotard wrote:somebody needs to put the dfuckingwayne bait back in the broom cupboard.

Hey Mitch, shut your squeaky little cock holster, you little punk.
“I am a fisherman. The work is simple, as is my life. Still, I take pride in my work because on these waters, I may think, and reason not to."

-Hindu Fisherman

"Do you remember, Odin, when in bygone days we mixed our blood together? You said you would never drink ale unless it were brought to both of us?" -Njal

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Da Ax
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Re: PSA: Religious LIberties

Post by Da Ax » Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:13 pm

cantfishforshit. wrote:Even despising a group does damage. It spreads hate and fear, which causes the hated group harm, even if you never touch them. Everyone has the right to self preservation. I may not know you are in a hate group, but if I find out, I sure as hell have the right to self preservation, which includes not having you around me or my business. Now, if you're gay, black, canadian, etc, I don't have the right to refuse you service just because I don't like you, or because my religion discriminates against you.
So, let me get this straight, if I despise a group, but do NOTHING to hinder or harm them (including disclosing how I feel to others, any other people), I'm doing harm? How is that? If I treat them with nothing less than indifference, that's just as bad as hate?

"Everyone has the right to self preservation." That is the smartest thing I've heard you say so far. You're absolutely right. What are the limits to self-preservation? Can one go on the offensive? Or is this a defensive stance only?

So, you think it's right to refuse service to one group because you don't believe in their views (the haters), but you feel it's OK to welcome other groups, yes? So, at that point, do you not become a hater, too? Are you not discriminating because you don't like or support their view?

Can we agree on the fact that religion is a personal matter? I'd wager many, many people who are of a religious faith do not like gays (or some other group) tend to do business or something else with them as a matter of course without anyone knowing about how they feel. They might discuss this among others who believe or have the same views as they do.
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cantfishforshit.
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Re: PSA: Religious LIberties

Post by cantfishforshit. » Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:15 pm

So, let me get this straight, if I despise a group, but do NOTHING to hinder or harm them (including disclosing how I feel to others, any other people), I'm doing harm? How is that? If I treat them with nothing less than indifference, that's just as bad as hate?


If you are a member of a hate group, or disclose to them what you think of them, then yes they have the right to refuse service. They have the right to self preservation. The right to not serve those that hate them, regardless of the persons actions to that point (and we all know racists get around to taking action in some way).


So, you think it's right to refuse service to one group because you don't believe in their views (the haters), but you feel it's OK to welcome other groups, yes? So, at that point, do you not become a hater, too? Are you not discriminating because you don't like or support their view?



No, self preservation is not hating. Asking Jews to serve Nazis (or people that are officially in that group but think like them) is asking them to do harm to themselves by supporting them in some way. No one should be forced to serve people that would do them harm, or even a person that "hates them but doesn't do anything about it," which we both know is a ridiculous theory.


Can we agree on the fact that religion is a personal matter? I'd wager many, many people who are of a religious faith do not like gays (or some other group) tend to do business or something else with them as a matter of course without anyone knowing about how they feel. They might discuss this among others who believe or have the same views as they do.


Religion is a personal matter. Follow any religion you wish, as long as it doesn't harm others and I have no problem with that, but don't tell me you refuse to serve a person because of their color, sex, sexual orientation, etc. We went over that in the 1960's in Selma, Nashville, Birmingham and several other places.
“I am a fisherman. The work is simple, as is my life. Still, I take pride in my work because on these waters, I may think, and reason not to."

-Hindu Fisherman

"Do you remember, Odin, when in bygone days we mixed our blood together? You said you would never drink ale unless it were brought to both of us?" -Njal

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T.J. Brayshaw
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Re: PSA: Religious LIberties

Post by T.J. Brayshaw » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:05 pm

cantfishforshit. wrote: If you are a member of a hate group, or disclose to them what you think of them, then yes they have the right to refuse service. They have the right to self preservation. The right to not serve those that hate them, regardless of the persons actions to that point (and we all know racists get around to taking action in some way).

No, self preservation is not hating. Asking Jews to serve Nazis (or people that are officially in that group but think like them) is asking them to do harm to themselves by supporting them in some way. No one should be forced to serve people that would do them harm, or even a person that "hates them but doesn't do anything about it," which we both know is a ridiculous theory.
Is this just your opinion of how you think things ought to be, or are we to read this as your interpretation of the law?

Because... http://tribuneherald.net/2013/08/23/kkk ... imination/

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cantfishforshit.
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Re: PSA: Religious LIberties

Post by cantfishforshit. » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:26 pm

T.J. Brayshaw wrote:
cantfishforshit. wrote: If you are a member of a hate group, or disclose to them what you think of them, then yes they have the right to refuse service. They have the right to self preservation. The right to not serve those that hate them, regardless of the persons actions to that point (and we all know racists get around to taking action in some way).

No, self preservation is not hating. Asking Jews to serve Nazis (or people that are officially in that group but think like them) is asking them to do harm to themselves by supporting them in some way. No one should be forced to serve people that would do them harm, or even a person that "hates them but doesn't do anything about it," which we both know is a ridiculous theory.
Is this just your opinion of how you think things ought to be, or are we to read this as your interpretation of the law?

Because... http://tribuneherald.net/2013/08/23/kkk ... imination/

There is legal precedent for my statement. One case doesn't mean that's the final word. That suit will go to a higher court and probably get over turned, if I'm understanding it correctly.
“I am a fisherman. The work is simple, as is my life. Still, I take pride in my work because on these waters, I may think, and reason not to."

-Hindu Fisherman

"Do you remember, Odin, when in bygone days we mixed our blood together? You said you would never drink ale unless it were brought to both of us?" -Njal

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fallen513
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Re: PSA: Religious LIberties

Post by fallen513 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:31 pm

Blacks hate whites.

Shut the fuck up already.
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T.J. Brayshaw
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Re: PSA: Religious LIberties

Post by T.J. Brayshaw » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:33 pm

cantfishforshit. wrote: There is legal precedent for my statement. One case doesn't mean that's the final word. That suit will go to a higher court and probably get over turned, if I'm understanding it correctly.
OK, like what? What's the legal precedent?

The only reason I replied (since I typically avoid on-line political discussions) is because you said the other guy's argument was asinine, but in fact there are a lot of cases of free-speech controversies that involve issues surrounding "ugly" speech. Neo-nazis marching in Skokie, for example. His argument wasn't asinine in the least.

Even dirtbags have civil rights, and the reason the ACLU often takes up those cases is because of their position - which I happen to agree with - that civil rights are important enough that sometimes the right thing to do is defend the civil rights of dirtbags...not because you agree with the dirtbags but because you think the defense of civil rights is that important.

As for fallen's comment, I can't say but he and I both know how we feel about trout. Fuck trout.

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SOBF
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Re: PSA: Religious LIberties

Post by SOBF » Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:26 am

I think that it's reasonable to not serve a person based on the fact that they are in a hate group (and all that you mentioned are in that category). It's not that complicated; Blacks are allowed at the lunch counter, so are gays. Hate groups can be refused service. Logic and reason still work. This isn't complicated.
If a fly fisherman walks into a bait shop can he be refused service because biased fly guys "hate" bait fishermen ? What about pinners? lots of hate here towards them?

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cantfishforshit.
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Re: PSA: Religious LIberties

Post by cantfishforshit. » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:07 pm

From what I gather it depends a lot on local laws, but TJ is correct in that many of these cases are taken up by the ACLU. I'm no attorney, but I'm fairly certain that in most places the owner has the right to refuse service, unless it's for race, religion, sex, etc...you know the rest, but as was stated, there are incidents were owners have been sued for not serving groups like the KKK. Hell, it seems reasonable to not serve them and it has been done in the past. Who knows these days...
“I am a fisherman. The work is simple, as is my life. Still, I take pride in my work because on these waters, I may think, and reason not to."

-Hindu Fisherman

"Do you remember, Odin, when in bygone days we mixed our blood together? You said you would never drink ale unless it were brought to both of us?" -Njal

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cantfishforshit.
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Re: PSA: Religious LIberties

Post by cantfishforshit. » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:38 pm

fallen513 wrote:Blacks hate whites.

Shut the fuck up already.

Image
“I am a fisherman. The work is simple, as is my life. Still, I take pride in my work because on these waters, I may think, and reason not to."

-Hindu Fisherman

"Do you remember, Odin, when in bygone days we mixed our blood together? You said you would never drink ale unless it were brought to both of us?" -Njal

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cantfishforshit.
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Re: PSA: Religious LIberties

Post by cantfishforshit. » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:15 pm

Image
“I am a fisherman. The work is simple, as is my life. Still, I take pride in my work because on these waters, I may think, and reason not to."

-Hindu Fisherman

"Do you remember, Odin, when in bygone days we mixed our blood together? You said you would never drink ale unless it were brought to both of us?" -Njal

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stripstrike
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Re: PSA: Religious LIberties

Post by stripstrike » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:03 am

I don't understand what hate groups have to do with this issue. Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with religious freedom either. I think it has more to do with some people being judgmental assholes, which is completely within their rights.
If I was a gay person who wanted a wedding cake, I would not want to buy my wedding cake from an asshole like that. I would give my business to a Methodist baker and make sure to tell all my friends and acquaintances what an asshole that baker was and call it good. Let the free market decide whether assholes make as much money as the tolerant.
"No, I'm not a pessimist. At some point the world shits on everybody. Pretending it ain't shit makes you an idiot, not an optimist." Justin's dad

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