Interesting Email

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Ty Webb
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Re: Interesting Email

Post by Ty Webb » Thu May 07, 2009 8:10 pm

Upsetter wrote: I would see my proportionally larger tax burden as an opportunity to help others. I am a bit of a bleeding heart that way. .
No shit? Hard to believe....
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gadflyfisher
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Re: Interesting Email

Post by gadflyfisher » Thu May 07, 2009 9:49 pm

Ty Webb wrote:
Upsetter wrote: I would see my proportionally larger tax burden as an opportunity to help others. I am a bit of a bleeding heart that way. .
No shit? Hard to believe....
I thought you were going to be upstairs!
What happened you get drunk and press the wrong button on the elevator?

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Rhyacophila
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Re: Interesting Email

Post by Rhyacophila » Fri May 08, 2009 8:43 am

First: I admire your sense of responsibility and your willingness to give back :cool

Second: I always appreciate your thoughtful and reasonable responses :cool X2

Third: While I generally agree with Ty, I too think he can be a real jackass.
__________________________________________________________________________

For my part, I wouldnt bitch about how much I pay and I surely wouldnt bitterly sell out in an attempt to revolt from my tax burden. I think that is a bit over the top and certainly counter productive. Instead I would insist on honest and efficient govt putting my tax dollars to their best use. BO's promise to weed out govt waste thru transparency, oversight, and monitoring is one I take very seriously. I have several PI websites in my favorites list that do just that with the budget, both congressionally and at the admin agency level.

Counter productive to innovation - so we should not punish succesful people by overtaxing them. Otherwise they CAN sell out, take their hit once and be done - living the lazy life of retirement with no further struggle to fight the rising disproportionate cost of being succesful.

As far as all those who arent contributing much, or as much as I am, I wouldnt feel bitter cause even after suffering a higher tax rate I still take home a quarter mil or better a year. A bunch of those people are living off 10K-15K a year, at or below the single person poverty line. I know what that is like, been there and done that. Many people living in that situation arent there because they are lazy, they are there because they are working their way thru school (that would be me for almost ten years, never made more than 20K/yr, and when I did for 2 yrs b/n undergrad & grad I still lived like a pauper to save up), had an accident that ruined their work potential, or have not availed themselves of a better education so they toil away at dead end low wage jobs that you must admit do need somebody to do them. That is not to mention the unfortunate plight of familes whose parents work well over a 100hrs a week for less than 30K take home, creating the destructive family dynamics that keep so many people living life that way.

I've been poor too. I spent 11 years of my childhood in a welfare project.

I think "many people" is a much lower percentage than I imagine you think it is.

Welfare is paying more than 10-15K / yr, so I dont know too many who are living on only that amount. Besides, if you are only making 25K and you have kids, you dont have to pay for preschool, the Y, milk, cheese, ... When I left grad school and "started making money" it was harder to make ends meet than when I was poor. The student loans are due, the car still breaks, mortgage is still due, no student discounts, no free/reduced memberships, ... I had to start payin my fair share, and like you, I'm happy to.

I'm not happy that there are so many that dont DO their fair share. I am not happy to bust my ass with hopes of creating a company that generates millions in revenue, only to pay more than my fair share of taxes. I think those who are paying 90% of this nations taxes are paying enough. I think the burden of paying the final ten percent should come as an increase to the lower 90%.

Grad students are averaging around 20K plus health coverage, been there too (too recently, with the now due loans to prove it) pulling in an extra 10K guiding - against my advisors wishes.

I guess if I was making a half mil a year and owned my own business, I would feel privileged to be so successful in this great country, despite the hard work it took to get there. I know full well that thousands of others work just as hard and come up way shorter than that. Id be sitting on top of the world. I would see my proportionally larger tax burden as an opportunity to help others. I am a bit of a bleeding heart that way. However, I again return to demanding efficient and productive govt programs designed to accomplish those goals. I deplore govt waste, or waste of any sort, something I picked up during the ten years it took me to earn less than our hypothetical guy takes home in one. I also deplore govt not aggressively weeding out fraud or abuse of their programs designed to help people. However, I am familiar enough with their efforts to do just that to know they are aggressively investigating and prosecuting fraud alot more than people think.

I already feel priveledged to live in this great nation where a welfare child has the opportunity to earn millions of dollars and get any education they are willing to work for. That said, if I am fortunate enough to be that succesful, I will not wish to share disproportionately with those who arent. I also know that there are thousands of people (much more than that) who are trying and are struggling. The tax burden IS ALREADY disproportionate, I do not believe that maiking it MORE disproportionate is an acceptable answer. At some point, they will take their money and go away.

If I gross a mil a year, I will pay something like 330K in taxes, right? You think I should pay more than that - while YOU are not asked to add another dime? Why? I will never support that. The percentage of filers who contribute NOTHING has increased under Bush and is increasing further under Obama (and would have under McCain).

The "Please save the world" but not with my money attitude has to be eliminated.

We should absolutely eliminate government waste. I imagine you and I define government waste differently.

I believe they are giving lip service to investigating fraud but certainly I see very little prosecution of it.
In a week, could you provide a hundred names of execs who are currently being prosecuted. Fraud has been rampant, yet we have only a few token examples being tried.



When you say PI websites, what do you mean? Please provide these links (here or PM). Thanks
I guess being fat and ugly isn't enough for the powder monkey - hes got to be an asshole too. (RvW)

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Upsetter
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Re: Interesting Email

Post by Upsetter » Fri May 08, 2009 11:39 am

Dont have much time today, heading off for adventure this pm and got lots of stuff to get done. FWIW, I dont think we are too far off on who we think needs help on the lower end and who doesnt. Basically, anybody who is content being at the bottom and sucking off the tit doesnt need help, they need a kick in the ass. Conversely, there are people who by virtue of unfortunate circumstances (mentally disabled, physically disabled, chronic disease, wounded vets, down on their luck, etc) who do need help, both temporarily and permanently, and should get it. Im all for tailoring our programs to help those who need it and give a swift kick in the ass to those who are loafing. Also, FWIW, I didnt avail myself of any welfaresque program while living poor in school, except maybe a couple visits to the food bank when I realized how much crap they were throwing away every day, waste not want not I always say.

By PI websites I mean public interest, mostly non-partisan; here are a few for tracking federal outlays:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/
http://www.usbudgetwatch.org/
http://www.ombwatch.org/
http://www.pewtrusts.org/our_work_detail.aspx?id=598
http://www.recovery.gov/
http://www.fedspending.org/

That should get you started. And regarding fraud, my uncle worked for the US attorney's office in dade county FL for two decades, his primary job was medicare/medicaid fraud prosecutions, he prosecuted thousands of individuals and institutions during his tenure there. He has told me some stories that would make your head spin. Nursing homes are, by far, the worst offenders. I believe he told me out of all their successful prosecutions they only had a handful become public spectacles. The vast majority were handled quietly as they didnt seek to put every hospital/nursing home in S Florida out of business, they wanted fraudulent billing practices stopped and monies paid back to govco, w/interest and penalties. Further, my experience here in MT with welfare fraud has also shown vigilance on the part of case workers to weed it out aggressively. Mind you, they are state employees.

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Rhyacophila
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Re: Interesting Email

Post by Rhyacophila » Fri May 08, 2009 12:20 pm

Upsetter wrote:... FWIW, I dont think we are too far off on who we think needs help on the lower end and who doesnt. Basically, anybody who is content being at the bottom and sucking off the tit doesnt need help, they need a kick in the ass. Conversely, there are people who by virtue of unfortunate circumstances (mentally disabled, physically disabled, chronic disease, wounded vets, down on their luck, etc) who do need help, both temporarily and permanently, and should get it. ....
The truly disabled should be getting 2 or 3 times what they do, and they would (might) if the lazy were not sucking the tit dry.

While I agree that we should eliminate welfare fraud, that wasn't the fraud I was talking about. I think there is a lot of fraudulent activity occuring in Washington, on Wall St, in the Banks... and you would need to catch 100,000 welfare cheats for every white collar cheat to achieve the same savings.

Anyway, enjoy your adventure! Pls take pics.
I guess being fat and ugly isn't enough for the powder monkey - hes got to be an asshole too. (RvW)

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