DID ANYONE NOTICE

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eponymous
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by eponymous » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:01 pm

Ditch:

No offense but I'm not sure you have followed this thing from the beginning and understand the facts and chronology - granted facts and chronology as reported in the media - though the media here in Mass cannot exactly be confused with the right wing media machine that some folks love to spout about. (I'm sure you've heard the joke about the headline in the Boston Globe after they find out the world is going to end tomorrow.)

Supporters of Gates are spinning the facts - by that I mean they make it sound as though he was arrested for breaking into his own house - and how can someone possibly be arrested for that? That would be “stupid” to quote the president. What he was arrested for was being disorderly; a misdemeanor. I don't care who you are, you cannot shout down a police officer in public - or on your front porch, particularly after you have been warned (calmly and repeatedly by all accounts except Gates' own) that you are about to be arrested for being disorderly yet you keep on going.

It is disingenuous to say that when he showed his identification the ordeal should have been over. I think we all agree that should have been the case. The problem is that Gates kept on going.....and going....and going.....If he shows him his identification and shuts his mouth this whole thing never happens.

Read up a bit on Crowley. He is actually an expert on racial profiling and teaches other officers about this subject. As I understand it by all accounts he is a good cop with an exemplary record. If that is not the case someone please educate me. I’m always willing to be educated on matters which I am ignorant.

Skip is the one holding the bag here - sorry but that is how it is. The subsequent race hustling has been very disappointing to me. I expect more from a Harvard scholar, my governor and my president. Having spent a few years and a crap load of cash there perhaps I shouldn't be.....



With respect to healthcare I also find some disingenuous talk from the Obamaphiles. All I hear about is folks being “denied” insurance. That sounds really bad. “DENIED” insurance. Aww….terrible….People may be and are denied insurance in the country all the time but nobody – no – bud – die is ever denied treatment regardless of whether they can afford it or not. (Even folks who are not in this country legally.)

Does this make the system expensive? Yes. Is it “broken”? Yes, but the system that is coming down the pike will be much worse. We’ll all have “insurance” what we may not get is treatment. THAT IS A FACT AND IT IS FUCKING SCARY……This move by the president would be the greatest single government confiscation of personal freedom this country has ever seen and once it is gone it will never come back.

Government involvement in this manner is a bad idea. By involvement I mean control of the healthcare system. I am okay with the regulation of the system – it is necessary and important (there out to be more of it – the insurers and the lawyers suck ass), but direct control of it is nasty nasty nasty. It is not what this country is all about. Never has been and God willing never will be.

Even my communist sister sees it this way. She is in the healthcare profession as is her husband who sits on the national physician’s board of examiners and writes questions for the medical exam.

You may love Obama for much of what he is putting forth and he is clearly doing a good job of pushing his agenda forward but this should scare the crap out of you (and your elderly parents).

My $0.02.
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eponymous
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by eponymous » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:11 pm

Can I also point to a quick bit of irony with respect to the original post.

What Skip Gates spends his life railing about is racism and racial profiling in American society not just specifically the police as is the case here. Intial reaction from the left to the woman who called into 911 was heinous. She was being threatened with physical violence on the Boston Globe's discussion boards for being a racist and reporting the incident to begin with.

She is in fact the polar opposite. She didn't mention race until asked for it by the 911 dispatcher. Isn't that the kind of thing a guy like Mr. Gates should be thankful for? The problem with this is as the world thankfully moves in this direction and Dr. King's dream is more reality than dream the race hustlers lose thier influence and the money that comes along with every cry of racism - the greatest fear of a white person in America.

Again just my $0.02.
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by LTD » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:16 pm

ditchdoc wrote:My points revolve around the basic belief that citizens, no matter who they are or where they reside, have the right to be secure in their homes. By secure, I mean the right to protect themselves from crime AND undue harassment by the police. Let's be honest here: Did Professor Gates do anything wrong, at all, prior to the police showing up? Answer: No. He was entering his own home. What was the police involvement? They received a, somewhat, iffy report of a possible break-in occurring at the residence, and responded correctly to the scene. I'm quite sure the Cambridge police have computers in their cars, and prior to arrival on scene, knew who owned the house and who lived there. I live in a comparatively small Kansas town and our police have this technology. So, the responding officer knew the identity of the owner and through DMV probably even had his photo. Once Mr. Gates presented his ID this incident should have been OVER. Repeat. OVER. There was no further need for police involvement.

I did not grow up as a black man, but I have an imagination. It doesn't take much of one, if you read history and the news, to get some idea of what it must be like. What I do know is this: If I had busted my ass, worked my way through college, done all the right things, attained the stature, respect and notoriety in my community and career, and STILL found myself arrested and handcuffed, in my own home, for the crime of VOCALLY demonstrating my outrage, I too would be raising bloody fucking hell. Again, let's be honest. Has every time you've had interactions with the police been a positive one? Have you ever found officers to be over-bearing or just plain rude? I'm not saying all cops are bad. And I'm not even saying this particular officer was necessarily bad. I'm just saying that he was, or should have been, the one in control of the situation. Mr. Gates was not-- once the police showed up. The charges were something like "unruly conduct." Well, hell, the guy is like five-foot-three, is elderly and walks with a freaking cane, for crissakes. So, do you think Mr. Gates should have said "Yessuh, massah, I'ze wrong. I be a good ole' boy from now on. I be lettin' evyone know when I'ze commin home so ya'll won't think Ize a burglah. Please doan trow me in jail massah." Really?

I still say this was stupid. Let's hope this blows away soon. There are so many other problems.

PS LTD, my previous post was not directed at you in particular. There are others with whom I do not always agree. But that is what makes this place so much fun. I'M an equal-opportunity-joke-you-if-you-can't-take-a-fuck-opinionated-asshole. So there. Nyah!

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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by gadflyfisher » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:27 am

Plow wrote:Found the AP story on MSNBC – shows you what kind of weight it carries.
From the story -
She does not mention the race of the men until pressed by a dispatcher to describe them.
"Um, well, there were two larger men," Whalen says. "One looked kind of Hispanic, but I'm not really sure. And the other one entered and I didn't see what he looked like at all. I just saw it from a distance and this older woman was worried, thinking, 'Someone's been breaking in someone's house. They've been barging in.'"
I got to go on record as saying I think it’s OK to mention race of suspicious folks when reporting something to the police. I don’t see any racism there and don’t understand all the fuss.

What was Crowley told in his call to respond? Was he told “black”, “possibly Hispanic” or nothing on race? That would be good to know.

On the surface there doesn’t seem to be any reason for Crowley to report “black” in his report (that we know of). My best guess is he made a mistake especially since several black officers have come to his defense including one who was there. He seems like a stand up guy and if there was any reason to think otherwise he already be demonized by the left and not on his way for a beer.

Bottom line is Gates acted the fool (aka acted stupidly) and got his ass hauled off to jail. Happens every day to dumb-asses of all colors all over this country.

Time for the left to fess up - they got racist and fools in their bunch too.
No denying the truth in that, they exist everywhere.

I was talking about the report he filed that stated he talked to the woman who made the 911 and was told those things also in person. She says she told him she was the caller and he said to wait for him, That ended their conversation.

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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by gadflyfisher » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:38 am

Having listened to all the released police tapes I have yet to hear the yelling or verbal abuse of the officer.
They also only give us the officers dealings with dispatch not with the suspect. It is still he said he said as to how the confrontational atmosphere began.

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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by gadflyfisher » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:51 am

LTD wrote:
ditchdoc wrote:I have been following these threads for several days now. I know that earlier I said I was going to stay off of the political chat. well, I'm tired of some around here intimating that supporters of Pres. Obama are, somehow, pussies, idiots or uninformed for not posting up here. You will think whatever you want--regardless of whether any of us post or not. Ditch, I know this was directed at me so I will respond directly to you. I not insinuating that Obama supporters are pussies, idiots, or uninformed. I found it interesting that Obama supporters are vocal and quick to post and praise when he does something positive, but are NOWHERE to be found when he pulls his little stunts that cannot be defended. Like I said...Crickets. I enjoy different perspectives and have learned some things from your posts as well as others and I appreciate that. Although we don't agree on everything, there are certainly things we do agree on and have in common. It's not all bad. No one wants you or anyone else here to shut up. I personally enjoy your posts.

I will make a few points and then shut up.

1. Whether Prof. Gates called the cop racist or not, when the Officer found out that Prof. Gates was rightfully in his own home, and there was no burglary in progress--that should have been the end of it. He should have said thanks for your cooperation and LEFT. Doesn't appear he cooperated initially. And Gates apparently followed the officer out of the house when the officer asked him to step outside, continued to make a scene, and was ultimately arrested for those actions. Not the actions in the house which also seem to be a little out of line but NOT illegal because he was IN his house. Outside is an entirely different story. If Gates hadn't thrown a race-baiting hissy fit, he'd have avoided the black and white taxi ride and photo session. The officer wasn't trying to harass the moron and if he'd have canned all the "this be what happens when cops find a black man" and "I'll talk to yo Momma" crap, it would have been a much more pleasant night for everyone concerned.

2. The fact that the Professor did not chose to kiss the officers ass is irrelevant. If the officer cannot handle being called names, he belongs in another line of work. Peace officers must show extraordinary restraint when dealing with the public. Verbal abuse is par for the coarse. Physical assault is another matter entirely. We are INNOCENT until proven guilty. Hell, most anyone would be pissed to be ordered out of his own house, when he knows he has done nothing wrong. If the police can order any citizen around with impunity, we are truly in a police state. You have chosen to cloud the facts Ditch.....read the reports as well as the witness statements that say Gates was the one doing ALL the yelling and that the officers did indeed show quite a bit of restraint. He was not ordered he was asked. Gates had a choice to stay in his house at that point. You know damn well he knew that being a professor and all.

3. President Obama did not call anyone a racist. He stated his opinion that he thought the police acted stupidly. I agree. Who said he did.....I must have missed something. Please point out where/who made that statement please.

4. Police officers have a thankless job. No question. I wouldn't want to be one. In this particular case, I think the Officer used poor judgment. Maybe he was having a bad day. It happens. Maybe Mr. gates was having a bad day. The police officer is the one who HAS to be under self-control. He is a PEACE officer.
Where and at what point does the officer get out of control Ditch? It appears as if he had pretty good control if you read the statements and listen to the tapes.

Ditch...stick around man.
Did you ever consider that nobody jumped to his defense because while they may support his political ideology they thought the president getting involve with a local incident he admitted he didn't have all the facts on was acting stupidly?

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eponymous
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by eponymous » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:06 pm

gadflyfisher wrote:Having listened to all the released police tapes I have yet to hear the yelling or verbal abuse of the officer.
They also only give us the officers dealings with dispatch not with the suspect. It is still he said he said as to how the confrontational atmosphere began.
It is not exactly a "he said he said". It is a he said he said witnesses and other officers corrobating the one of the he's did say.....jus sayin'.
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Mattb
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by Mattb » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:57 pm

eponymous wrote: With respect to healthcare I also find some disingenuous talk from the Obamaphiles. All I hear about is folks being “denied” insurance. That sounds really bad. “DENIED” insurance. Aww….terrible….People may be and are denied insurance in the country all the time but nobody – no – bud – die is ever denied treatment regardless of whether they can afford it or not. (Even folks who are not in this country legally.)

Does this make the system expensive? Yes. Is it “broken”? Yes, but the system that is coming down the pike will be much worse. We’ll all have “insurance” what we may not get is treatment. THAT IS A FACT AND IT IS FUCKING SCARY……This move by the president would be the greatest single government confiscation of personal freedom this country has ever seen and once it is gone it will never come back.
I had to respond to this, because it gets tossed out pretty regularly by folks that are opposed to a public option for health care. It's one of those things that's just supposed to be taken as a given, like the sky is blue. The thing is, it's just not true. Sure, if you show up at the ER with an emergency, you're going to get treated, no matter what - do you honestly think this'd change if government were in charge? If you have some sort of life-threatening condition and there's a treatment that might work, there's a very real chance that your insurance company won't cover that treatment. Unless you're Bill Gates, chances are that means you can't afford the treatment, which mean's you've been denied treatment. It seems unlikely that this is going to change either.

There's already rationing of health care in this country - insurance companies do it every day. I don't see how it automatically becomes some sort of awful travesty when the government is the insurer.
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
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SOBF
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by SOBF » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:32 pm

Not in Maine, they don't, which is yet another facet of our broken system.
There are places in the country where insurance is much cheaper than here in ME. Comparing ME to most any other state is not apples to apples.
Shouldn't we get the fraud in medicare and medicaid under control before we start another over haul.
How about the fact that BO took Tort reform off the table. If your serious about reducing cost this needs to addressed.

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eponymous
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by eponymous » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:09 pm

Mattb wrote:"It's one of those things that's just supposed to be taken as a given, like the sky is blue. The thing is, it's just not true.

I don't see how it automatically becomes some sort of awful travesty when the government is the insurer.

First of all what is not true about it? This plan will ration healthcare far moreso than the current system. Please prove to me it will not. It has to by default. You cannot cover more people better for the same amount of money. Having your heart in the right place does not change the time tested principals of economics.

Second let me set up a hypthetical - but plausible - scenario for you. The goverment is now in control of healthcare - who gets treated, when they get treated, how the get treated, who will treat them and how much money will be spent on the treatment. (Unlike the current system you cannot go to another insurer or doctor if you don't like the decisions made by your current provider or physician.) A government appointed person or board will decide what treatment you (your parents / your wife / your children) will get - if you get it at all. Now imagine the republicans regain control of the house, the senate and 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. You don't think they are so devious that these decisions won't come down to the letter that follows your name on the voter roles and how much you donated to the republican party.......again, just a hypothetical.

I repeat - from where I sit this is an erosion of one of our freedoms. It takes control away from the people and puts it into the hands of the government. We'll pay more and get less for it.

e
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eponymous
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by eponymous » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:11 pm

So if this is true this guy is a total cock knocker. What an ass.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaki ... spend.html

Changes the complexion (so to speak) of tomorrow's beerfest. Does it not?
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SOBF
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by SOBF » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:19 pm

Lets take a poll.How many of you out there (be honest) that say insurance is to expensive ,but have cell phones, cable (HBO) etc,car payments you can't afford etc. ? I spend a pile on insurance and hate every minute of it. I just don't believe the gummint can do a better job.
How many of you work a second job?

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