DID ANYONE NOTICE

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Mattb
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by Mattb » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:24 pm

SOBF wrote: There are places in the country where insurance is much cheaper than here in ME. Comparing ME to most any other state is not apples to apples.
This is true, and it's kind of what I meant by the system being broken. The current patchwork of state regs is such a colossal clusterfuck. Unfortunately, I doubt the current iteration of health care reform will be able to completely un-fuck things.
SOBF wrote: Shouldn't we get the fraud in medicare and medicaid under control before we start another over haul.
How about the fact that BO took Tort reform off the table. If your serious about reducing cost this needs to addressed.
I've never seen any compelling evidence that fraud in medicare/medicaid is any worse that it is in private insurance (A quick google search turns up http://www.gwumc.edu/sphhs/departments/ ... 4F2163.pdf, which seems to indicate that Medicare/Medicaid fraud is more prevalent than fraud in private insurance). I'd say the fraud argument is a red herring. Ok, how about cost? If you look at the rate of cost increase (per person) since 1970 for both Medicare and private insurance you see that the rate of increase in Medicare is actually about 33% lower than the rate of increase for private insurance.

The health insurance industry (note: this is distinct from the health care industry) is a parasite on the American economy, and it's driving us bankrupt.
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
-Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Mattb
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by Mattb » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:31 pm

SOBF wrote:Lets take a poll.How many of you out there (be honest) that say insurance is to expensive ,but have cell phones, cable (HBO) etc,car payments you can't afford etc. ? I spend a pile on insurance and hate every minute of it. I just don't believe the gummint can do a better job.
How many of you work a second job?
I say insurance is expensive - too expensive for me to be able to afford reasonable coverage (It'd be more than double what I pay for rent in a month). I have a cell, but it's paid for by work, and I don't have a landline. I don't have cable, and my car is paid for. I run a small business, which is pretty demanding on my time, but I do a variety of things in my spare time to earn extra cash(computer consulting, photography, etc.)- mostly so that I can put something away for retirement.

Let's add another 2 part question to your poll - have you ever had to purchase insurance on the private market? do you support the health care reform effort?
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
-Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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SOBF
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by SOBF » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:33 pm

The health insurance industry (note: this is distinct from the health care industry) is a parasite on the American economy, and it's driving us bankrupt.
While I agree costs are going up don't you think Tort reform should be part of any "package"
As far as health insurance driving us bankrupt I would say spending trillions of dollars we do not have on "stimulus" is driving us bankrupt. The interest on the debt is KILLING us. I liken it to maxing out a cc and only paying minimum payments. It's not sustainable. Do you believe this needs to be addressed (health care package) before Sept.? This has been going on for years and we need time to read and toss around other ideas. You don't stop a train in 100 yds. Lets take our time and figure out a positive solution.
The 100 page stimulus package that barely got read was a bad example of doing it right. My 2 cents

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Mattb
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by Mattb » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:38 pm

eponymous wrote: First of all what is not true about it? This plan will ration healthcare far moreso than the current system. Please prove to me it will not. It has to by default. You cannot cover more people better for the same amount of money. Having your heart in the right place does not change the time tested principals of economics.
Who said anything about the same amount of money? The public option, should it pass, isn't going to be free. It'll be an insurance company like any other in a lot of ways, and there will be premiums paid by subscribers. I find it hilarious that the most vigorous defenders of Capitalism/Free markets and the principle that private enterprise can do anything/everything better than government are so terrified of the government providing competition to the insurers. If private enterprise is so superior, the gov't plan ought to flop and they've got nothing to worry about.
eponymous wrote: Second let me set up a hypthetical - but plausible - scenario for you. The goverment is now in control of healthcare - who gets treated, when they get treated, how the get treated, who will treat them and how much money will be spent on the treatment. (Unlike the current system you cannot go to another insurer or doctor if you don't like the decisions made by your current provider or physician.) A government appointed person or board will decide what treatment you (your parents / your wife / your children) will get - if you get it at all. Now imagine the republicans regain control of the house, the senate and 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. You don't think they are so devious that these decisions won't come down to the letter that follows your name on the voter roles and how much you donated to the republican party.......again, just a hypothetical.

I repeat - from where I sit this is an erosion of one of our freedoms. It takes control away from the people and puts it into the hands of the government. We'll pay more and get less for it.

e
I can't say for sure, but it sure sounds like you've been watching too much fox news. It'd help if you did a bit more reading on the issue. It sounds like you're describing some evil mutant plan that incorporates all the worst parts of every universal health care system from all over the world. It's so absurd that I'm not going to refute it on a point by point basis, but I'll just say this: If you really believe that this is what the plan is trying to do, I can see why you don't support it.
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
-Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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SOBF
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by SOBF » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:43 pm

I can't say for sure, but it sure sounds like you've been watching too much fox news
I don't have cable so it's not FN that I get my opinions. Not sure about E.

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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by Mattb » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:51 pm

SOBF wrote: While I agree costs are going up don't you think Tort reform should be part of any "package"
Tort reform is an important issue, and I think it's something that needs to be addressed, but If you actually look at the hard numbers (plenty of references in this good article by the Washington Post's Ezra Klein- http://www.slate.com/id/2145400/) the idea that it's some sort of driving force behind the rise in medical costs just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Sure, let's talk about tort reform, but it's not really germane to the health care debate.
SOBF wrote: As far as health insurance driving us bankrupt I would say spending trillions of dollars we do not have on "stimulus" is driving us bankrupt. The interest on the debt is KILLING us. I liken it to maxing out a cc and only paying minimum payments. It's not sustainable. Do you believe this needs to be addressed (health care package) before Sept.? This has been going on for years and we need time to read and toss around other ideas. You don't stop a train in 100 yds. Lets take our time and figure out a positive solution.
The 100 page stimulus package that barely got read was a bad example of doing it right. My 2 cents
I agree that the stimulus bill contained plenty of waste. It certainly didn't help. We can play the "look at this wasteful government program game" all day, but it's not productive - we're not talking about the stimulus bill, we're talking about health care. The stimulus bill cost roughly 800 billion dollars, we spent 2.4 trillion on health care last year, it's projected to be 4.4 trillion in 8 years, and the growth is definitely nonlinear - before long, 800 billion will be a rounding error for health care costs.
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
-Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by eponymous » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:59 pm

Matt:

I am a registered democrat who voted for BO in the primary but not in the general election. Don't be a condescending fuckbag and drop that weakass Fox news crap (unless you are going to throw in a good Rush to top it off. That would make me feel better.) It is a typical stunt intended to degrade another person's viewpoint as though it is not valid. I have not dropped any Keith Olbermann's on you (yet). A quick qeustion since you seem to be rather learned. Have you ever actually watched Fox News? I hope to get a serious and honest answer from you. I will let you know that I do watch some Fox as well as some CNN. I tried to be as educated on things as time permits. I have tried to watch MSNBC but it is just too painful. Lots of condescending fuckbags. (Did you catch that subtle Keith Olbermann dig I just dropped there?)

It was President Obama who said it would not cost anymore. Look it up. (The CBO however disagrees.)

Here is the issue you don't seem to get - the goverment does not need to make a profit. They simply raise taxes to offset the losses - as it has been and as it so shall be. Private companies cannot do this and therefore cannot compete in the long run with a goverment plan. It would no longer be an open marketplace and this is not what America is all about. At least not the one that I want to live in.

Can you point to a govement run universal healthcare system in some other place that works better than our current system - broken as it may be? It is sort of like what they say about our system of capitalism. It is the worst system in the world except for all of the other systems.

Sorry I won't be able to respond to your response. Apparently I need to go read some more.
"Baseball gives every American boy a chance to excel, not just to be as good as someone else but to be better than someone else. This is the nature of man and the name of the game." Ted Williams

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Mattb
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by Mattb » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:01 pm

SOBF wrote:
I can't say for sure, but it sure sounds like you've been watching too much fox news
I don't have cable so it's not FN that I get my opinions. Not sure about E.
Yeah, that was a low blow- knew it as soon as I'd posted it, but you can't unring a bell.

Edit: E beat me to it above - I had that one coming.
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by eponymous » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:12 pm

dude - sorry for calling you a condescending fuckbag. it's been a long day at work. figured i'd take a break after 10 straight hours of billing and contract review and do a little draking....

i'm still scared of obamacare.....

e
"Baseball gives every American boy a chance to excel, not just to be as good as someone else but to be better than someone else. This is the nature of man and the name of the game." Ted Williams

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Mattb
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by Mattb » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:19 pm

eponymous wrote:Matt:
A quick qeustion since you seem to be rather learned. Have you ever actually watched Fox News?
My grandmother, who lives just up the road, and who I visit pretty regularly, watches nothing but Fox News and Entertainment Tonight, and she NEVER turns the television off, so I get a regular dose. It'd be funny if it weren't taken so seriously by so many people.
eponymous wrote: Can you point to a govement run universal healthcare system in some other place that works better than our current system - broken as it may be? It is sort of like what they say about our system of capitalism. It is the worst system in the world except for all of the other systems.
I can only comment on a few different systems, one of which I have firsthand experience with, and a few others that close friends live under. My ex is Canadian, while we were together, her mother was diagnosed with lung cancer (lifelong smoker). I have nothing but great things to say about the care she recieved. She saw a doctor for a persistent cold, had a biopsy the next day, and was in chemo in 2 weeks. Unfortunately, the cancer was too far along by the time it was detected, but she received world-class care. Note: she was a self-employed housekeeper/landscaper/gardener, and there's no way she would've had decent health insurance in the US.

I have close friends, mostly college roommates, who live in a few different countries worldwide. They all rave about the health care in their respective adopted countries.

I've never met anyone, and the studies I've seen all agree with this, that has experienced the health care system in another developed country that would even consider trading what they have for our system.
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
-Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Mattb
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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by Mattb » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:20 pm

eponymous wrote:dude - sorry for calling you a condescending fuckbag. it's been a long day at work. figured i'd take a break after 10 straight hours of billing and contract review and do a little draking....

i'm still scared of obamacare.....

e
No blood no foul. I'm sitting at my computer, watching yet another band of torrential downpours and t-storms roll through, so I'm bitter that another night of fishing is going to be missed.
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
-Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Re: DID ANYONE NOTICE

Post by The Volfish » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:37 pm

I'll be voting for change in the mid term election. :coffee
Do I pay full price for every place I get to fish? Fuck no. - nemo

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